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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 18 2013, 04:05 PM   #46
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Yanks wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
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Thank you. I suppose you say his cameo in this movie was good writing too.
I complained loudly about this when I saw the movie the first four times and that Spock would attempt to contact New Vulcan instead of Earth. The fifth-time I was watching and complaining, my wife looked at me and said, "there is probably no one on Earth that he feels he can trust".

And you know what? She was fucking right. Just because you think something is bad, doesn't mean it actually is bad.
Just because you think she was fucking right doesn't mean she is either.

It's a cop-out for nuSpock. Everytime he gets in a pickle he can just call himself.

And what made it worse was - what information did nuSpock obtain that helped him at all? What information obtained did he use to capture/stop/understand Khan?

Nothing, not one useful bit of information.

Remove the scene, it doesn't change anything with the story.

Why does nuSpock need to call anyone? Does he need to hear Spockprime tell him Khan was a bad guy? That he was pissed? That he killed Pike?

Completely useless cameo.
Spock couldn't contact Earth. Who would he call - Starfleet Command? Would they believe him or their CIC? If he contact them then they'd probably send out a force against the Enterprise to save Admiral Marcus.

Why shouldn't nuSpock contact PrimeSpock? nuSpocks being forced inro situations that he wouldn't be in this early in life if it wasn't for PrimeSpock's intrusion/creation of this nuUniverse. Perhaps nuSpock needed PrimeSpock's reasurrance that his instincts about Khan were right. Perhaps nuSpock needs PrimeSpock's advise for his 'emotional security'. He didn't have Kirk to sound out and everyone else aboard was less experienced. I don't think nuSpock wants to go around killing people unless its absolutely necessary.
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Old September 18 2013, 04:49 PM   #47
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

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I don't believe this to be true at all. The death scene in TWoK is iconic because the relationship they've culivated over the years. TWoK is good enough to be a stand alone movie because all the facts you need to understand it are there. But take someone that doesn't know trek, or hasn't seen TOS and their reaction to Spock's death is different. Did the whole theater get all emotional when Scotty carried that dead trainee up to the bridge? Not even close to the emotion Spocks death envoked. Why? because there is a history there.
By this standard there are no movie deaths that should be emotionally resonant because in most movies we are only being introduced to the characters involved.
Not at all. My comments are specific to this movie, not all. There are many movies where deaths are moving and mean something. It's because they built the characters/senarios up so it was. They didn't just mean something because they said so.

This is where being a Trek fan is a hindrance to enjoying the movie. There were a good portion of Into Darkness ticket buyers who weren't even born when The Wrath of Khan was released and likely a good portion of those who had never even seen the movie. Should The Dark Knight not have used the Joker because there are people who were exposed to the character in different forms in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's?
Not at all. But Star Trek isn't Batman and to compare The Joker to Spock is like compairing apples to oranges.

I saw STID twice in the theaters. Both times I sat in a seat where I could gage the reaction of the audience. What I saw when Kirk died, and Spock lost it was lost of heads shaking (probably the "old" trekkies" and actual LAUGHING! Those "new" viewers actually were laughing! I didn't see a wet eye in the theater. Why? Because that reaction just wasn't earned. These new fans just didn't see it as the writers tried to push it down our throats.

One could easily say the writers were effected by being a trek fan in this case.

The Abramsverse films had two ways to go as far as Kirk and Spock go: they could've picked up mid-five year mission and simply told us they were friends or they could try and show us the evolution of the friendship. They choose the latter. Has it been 100% successful? No. Has it been enjoyable? Hell yes. In the former we pick up with a Kirk and Spock who have been serving together for less than a year if certain interpretations are to be believed and Kirk trusted Spock's judgement enough to strand his best friend on a lifeless planet. There is no doubt in my mind that they were fast friends in the Prime timeline as well and that's not the Abrams films coloring that judgement, that's a personal interpretation I've held for decades.
Please don't make me out to be a "JJ Trek hater" I rated ST09 8 out of 10. That movies gets better with age too. It's quite amazing that a movie with no story at all and science to throw up for is so damn good. I felt the same during ID - until the ending.

I included an alternate ending in my review posted in the "STAR TREK INTO DARKNESS Grading & Discussion [SPOILERS] thread.

I've enjoyed how they were developing the relationship. Thought it was appropriate, albeit mind-meld aided.

Not every movie-goer is going to have seen The Wrath of Khan fifty-times and dissected it to the point that they can tell you who was responsible for every single detail.
So true. But if the Kirk/Spock relationship was as developed as you indicate, then the reaction from those that hadn't been a trekkie for 30 years should have been similar to TWoK.

Simply put, it wasn't.
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Old September 18 2013, 05:04 PM   #48
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Yanks wrote: View Post
I saw STID twice in the theaters. Both times I sat in a seat where I could gage the reaction of the audience. What I saw when Kirk died, and Spock lost it was lost of heads shaking (probably the "old" trekkies" and actual LAUGHING!
I don't understand why anyone would care about how other audience members react to something they're watching. I'm there to enjoy the show, not prove some pet theory.

In four showings I went to on opening weekend, I heard exactly one person laugh during the Khan scream: my wife (I went with her opening night). She also thought the Spock death scene in TWOK was cheesy as Hell. My little boy was rubbing tears out of his eyes during Kirk's death.

As a family: my wife, my mother-in-law and my two sons all enjoyed the movie immensely. That's all I ask for when buying a movie ticket.
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Old September 18 2013, 05:11 PM   #49
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

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Seriously Yanks? A year of serving together on the same ship, going on missions, basically spending 24 hours a day together when not sleeping, isn't long enough to form a meaningful bond? How long should it take? I'd be willing to bet a week or at most a month under those circumstances is pretty much enough for most people
None of which we've seen.

In hTrek, we saw all those missions, we saw the relationship develop over time. Does the whole theater tear up if Chekov saves Enterprise in TWoK? I think not.

In nuTrek, it's "I pulled you out of a volcano because I'm your friend" and "I want to capture Harrison instead of killing him".

You're telling me that is enough to develop a strong enough bond that Spock throws all logic out the window and goes to kill Khan with his bare hands?

It doesn't work.

In hTrek Kirk needed Spock... in nuTrek, he's been at odds with him half the time.
So, you can't accept they were close friends in the Salt Monster TOS Episode, which was the first episode aired (Or was it Where No One has Gone Before, but same point)?
Where did I indicate that? We can for certain say they weren't at EACH OTHER'S THROAT prior to meeting the Salt Monster...

As a board posting fan, surely you are aware of the comics depicting missions we haven't seen onscreen (I haven't read them, but, I accept this). Also, surely you're aware the creators have said a year has passed between movies.
I am most surely aware.

But, it's pretty clear in the movies themselves. In ST09, they were at each other's throats, and then made up. That "Guy Lore" or "Movie lore" for they'll be besties for life. Additionally, it's obvious time has passed when STiD starts. Kirk makes it obvious he cares about Spock while they are worried about him in the Volcano. The whole report thing, shows Kirk feels a friend betrayed him. the shuttle they use to go to Qu'onos was Harry Mudd's from a mission weeks ago. It's all there in the movie, IMHO, if you just accept and absorb it.
Absorption function operating perfectly thank you.

I think you believe they'll be "besties for life" because you know them in hTrek.

Are you telling me that if someone else from his crew was in the Volcano he would have stranded them? Any angst Kirk showed was trying to get Spock to justify breaking the prime directive.

Yes, Kirk did feel betrayed. It's obvious that Spock didn't share those feelings, because he wrote the reports.

Personally, I would've been very happy with an opening montage of a couple of minutes that showed up quick scenes of missions we are familiar with from TOS, so we can see that time has most definitely passed and that time has been filled with lots of missions together, but, it wasn't necessary, what we needed was indeed provided in the movies.
That would have been nice, but not necessary.

What you needed maybe, because you knew what their relationship is supposed to be.
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Old September 18 2013, 05:18 PM   #50
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

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I saw STID twice in the theaters. Both times I sat in a seat where I could gage the reaction of the audience. What I saw when Kirk died, and Spock lost it was lost of heads shaking (probably the "old" trekkies" and actual LAUGHING!
I don't understand why anyone would care about how other audience members react to something they're watching. I'm there to enjoy the show, not prove some pet theory.

In four showings I went to on opening weekend, I heard exactly one person laugh during the Khan scream: my wife (I went with her opening night). She also thought the Spock death scene in TWOK was cheesy as Hell. My little boy was rubbing tears out of his eyes during Kirk's death.

As a family: my wife, my mother-in-law and my two sons all enjoyed the movie immensely. That's all I ask for when buying a movie ticket.
Some pet theory? I'm just telling you what I saw. I didn't go to the movie to prove a point. I went to be entertained.

I went again, to make sure I didn't miss something because I was pissed at the ending.

Glad you all enjoyed it. No kidding. I went with my family as well. They all looked at me during the death scene Of course they, except for my 10 year old, had all watched lots of trek with me and had seen TWoK.

She thought TWoK death scene was cheesy? ... time for a change?

Just kidding.
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Old September 18 2013, 05:21 PM   #51
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Spock didn't think Kirk would lie on his report, but as he said in Pike's office, he was very grateful Kirk saved his life.
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Old September 18 2013, 05:29 PM   #52
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
I saw STID twice in the theaters. Both times I sat in a seat where I could gage the reaction of the audience. What I saw when Kirk died, and Spock lost it was lost of heads shaking (probably the "old" trekkies" and actual LAUGHING!
I don't understand why anyone would care about how other audience members react to something they're watching. I'm there to enjoy the show, not prove some pet theory.

In four showings I went to on opening weekend, I heard exactly one person laugh during the Khan scream: my wife (I went with her opening night). She also thought the Spock death scene in TWOK was cheesy as Hell. My little boy was rubbing tears out of his eyes during Kirk's death.

As a family: my wife, my mother-in-law and my two sons all enjoyed the movie immensely. That's all I ask for when buying a movie ticket.
[HERESY ALERT!] Very astute observation by your wife. Frankly, I thought Spock's death scene in TWOK was cheesy, too. It even had moments of humor. I remember muffled chuckles in the theater three times during the scene (and that included me): 1. When Spock gets up and then thinks enough to straighten his tunic. 2. When he walks into the wall and bounces off because he apparently can't see well. 3. When he seems concerned enough to ask Kirk what he thought of his solution to the no-win scenario. [/HERESY ALERT!]

At least to me, in comparison, Kirk's death scene was far more gut-wrenching with the tight shots, sad music, and real fear expressed by Kirk and real emotion expressed by Spock. The ONLY thing it had in common with TWOK was it was a similar situation done much better than the first time. (Now, I'll just go put on a hard hat to withstand all the rocks and garbage that will be thrown at me. Imagine, an original Trek fan going back to TOS disliking Spock's death scene. )
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Old September 18 2013, 05:37 PM   #53
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Yanks wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post

None of which we've seen.

In hTrek, we saw all those missions, we saw the relationship develop over time. Does the whole theater tear up if Chekov saves Enterprise in TWoK? I think not.

In nuTrek, it's "I pulled you out of a volcano because I'm your friend" and "I want to capture Harrison instead of killing him".

You're telling me that is enough to develop a strong enough bond that Spock throws all logic out the window and goes to kill Khan with his bare hands?

It doesn't work.

In hTrek Kirk needed Spock... in nuTrek, he's been at odds with him half the time.
So, you can't accept they were close friends in the Salt Monster TOS Episode, which was the first episode aired (Or was it Where No One has Gone Before, but same point)?
Where did I indicate that? We can for certain say they weren't at EACH OTHER'S THROAT prior to meeting the Salt Monster...
You said you hadn't seen onscreen that they had developed that relationship, like we had seen in TOS. Obviously in TOS first episode, you would not have seen that relationship develop yet, so, how is it you can accept their freindship in the first TOS episode, but, not in STiD, which did show their friendship and followed up the movie that had them at each other's throats and making up (Which again is Movie or Guy shorthand for "they're gonna be Besties for Life")
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Old September 18 2013, 06:25 PM   #54
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Spock didn't think Kirk would lie on his report, but as he said in Pike's office, he was very grateful Kirk saved his life.

Well sure... that does not constitute being "besties".

If you were Joe shit the rag man, wouldn't you be greatful?
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Old September 18 2013, 06:28 PM   #55
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
So, you can't accept they were close friends in the Salt Monster TOS Episode, which was the first episode aired (Or was it Where No One has Gone Before, but same point)?
Where did I indicate that? We can for certain say they weren't at EACH OTHER'S THROAT prior to meeting the Salt Monster...
You said you hadn't seen onscreen that they had developed that relationship, like we had seen in TOS. Obviously in TOS first episode, you would not have seen that relationship develop yet, so, how is it you can accept their freindship in the first TOS episode, but, not in STiD, which did show their friendship and followed up the movie that had them at each other's throats and making up (Which again is Movie or Guy shorthand for "they're gonna be Besties for Life")
What?

I said they could be friends, I never indicated I thought they had time to develop the friendship we knew they had in TWoK.
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Old September 18 2013, 06:34 PM   #56
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Franklin wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
I saw STID twice in the theaters. Both times I sat in a seat where I could gage the reaction of the audience. What I saw when Kirk died, and Spock lost it was lost of heads shaking (probably the "old" trekkies" and actual LAUGHING!
I don't understand why anyone would care about how other audience members react to something they're watching. I'm there to enjoy the show, not prove some pet theory.

In four showings I went to on opening weekend, I heard exactly one person laugh during the Khan scream: my wife (I went with her opening night). She also thought the Spock death scene in TWOK was cheesy as Hell. My little boy was rubbing tears out of his eyes during Kirk's death.

As a family: my wife, my mother-in-law and my two sons all enjoyed the movie immensely. That's all I ask for when buying a movie ticket.
[HERESY ALERT!] Very astute observation by your wife. Frankly, I thought Spock's death scene in TWOK was cheesy, too. It even had moments of humor. I remember muffled chuckles in the theater three times during the scene (and that included me): 1. When Spock gets up and then thinks enough to straighten his tunic. 2. When he walks into the wall and bounces off because he apparently can't see well. 3. When he seems concerned enough to ask Kirk what he thought of his solution to the no-win scenario. [/HERESY ALERT!]

At least to me, in comparison, Kirk's death scene was far more gut-wrenching with the tight shots, sad music, and real fear expressed by Kirk and real emotion expressed by Spock. The ONLY thing it had in common with TWOK was it was a similar situation done much better than the first time. (Now, I'll just go put on a hard hat to withstand all the rocks and garbage that will be thrown at me. Imagine, an original Trek fan going back to TOS disliking Spock's death scene. )
Heresy is right

The only thing "cheesy" about Spock's death scene, was "what the hell was he doing in that thing?" "What the hell was he fixing in there?"
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Old September 18 2013, 07:31 PM   #57
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

I complained loudly about this when I saw the movie the first four times and that Spock would attempt to contact New Vulcan instead of Earth. The fifth-time I was watching and complaining, my wife looked at me and said, "there is probably no one on Earth that he feels he can trust".

And you know what? She was fucking right. Just because you think something is bad, doesn't mean it actually is bad.
Just because you think she was fucking right doesn't mean she is either.

It's a cop-out for nuSpock. Everytime he gets in a pickle he can just call himself.

And what made it worse was - what information did nuSpock obtain that helped him at all? What information obtained did he use to capture/stop/understand Khan?

Nothing, not one useful bit of information.

Remove the scene, it doesn't change anything with the story.

Why does nuSpock need to call anyone? Does he need to hear Spockprime tell him Khan was a bad guy? That he was pissed? That he killed Pike?

Completely useless cameo.
Spock couldn't contact Earth. Who would he call - Starfleet Command? Would they believe him or their CIC? If he contact them then they'd probably send out a force against the Enterprise to save Admiral Marcus.

Why shouldn't nuSpock contact PrimeSpock? nuSpocks being forced inro situations that he wouldn't be in this early in life if it wasn't for PrimeSpock's intrusion/creation of this nuUniverse. Perhaps nuSpock needed PrimeSpock's reasurrance that his instincts about Khan were right. Perhaps nuSpock needs PrimeSpock's advise for his 'emotional security'. He didn't have Kirk to sound out and everyone else aboard was less experienced. I don't think nuSpock wants to go around killing people unless its absolutely necessary.
You seemed to miss an important part of my post.

And what made it worse was - what information did nuSpock obtain that helped him at all? What information obtained did he use to capture/stop/understand Khan?
"emotional security" .... exactly, a huge problem with nuSpock at the end of STID. I guess Spockprime didn't help him there.

"instincts" What did he need to be instictual about? He already knows first hand what Khan's done...
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Old September 18 2013, 07:45 PM   #58
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Yanks wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

I don't understand why anyone would care about how other audience members react to something they're watching. I'm there to enjoy the show, not prove some pet theory.

In four showings I went to on opening weekend, I heard exactly one person laugh during the Khan scream: my wife (I went with her opening night). She also thought the Spock death scene in TWOK was cheesy as Hell. My little boy was rubbing tears out of his eyes during Kirk's death.

As a family: my wife, my mother-in-law and my two sons all enjoyed the movie immensely. That's all I ask for when buying a movie ticket.
[HERESY ALERT!] Very astute observation by your wife. Frankly, I thought Spock's death scene in TWOK was cheesy, too. It even had moments of humor. I remember muffled chuckles in the theater three times during the scene (and that included me): 1. When Spock gets up and then thinks enough to straighten his tunic. 2. When he walks into the wall and bounces off because he apparently can't see well. 3. When he seems concerned enough to ask Kirk what he thought of his solution to the no-win scenario. [/HERESY ALERT!]

At least to me, in comparison, Kirk's death scene was far more gut-wrenching with the tight shots, sad music, and real fear expressed by Kirk and real emotion expressed by Spock. The ONLY thing it had in common with TWOK was it was a similar situation done much better than the first time. (Now, I'll just go put on a hard hat to withstand all the rocks and garbage that will be thrown at me. Imagine, an original Trek fan going back to TOS disliking Spock's death scene. )
Heresy is right

The only thing "cheesy" about Spock's death scene, was "what the hell was he doing in that thing?" "What the hell was he fixing in there?"
Count me among the heretical. I saw TWOK the week it opened (I've been watching TOS since 1973 at the age of six). While I didn't find Spock's death scene overly "cheesy", I found it less compelling than what I watched in the cinema this past summer (and will soon watch again). The quality of acting from Pine/Quinto sold the scene more effectively than did Shatner/Nimoy (and I enjoy the work of each).

As for the scream--it had a far more compelling contextual justification than Kirk's scream in TWOK. The character arc building over two films for Spock made the moment far more believable than Kirk's motives for his scream. Certainly one is free to disagree, but let's not pretend that the entire scene is one that should be "obviously bad" to all viewers. And in two packed screenings, I did not hear a single sound that remotely hinted at laughter or any other derogatory thought. More than one person was dabbing at their eyes, though. So anecdotal evidence is rendered moot by other anecdotal evidence (as is usually the case).
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Old September 18 2013, 07:56 PM   #59
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Ovation wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
Franklin wrote: View Post

[HERESY ALERT!] Very astute observation by your wife. Frankly, I thought Spock's death scene in TWOK was cheesy, too. It even had moments of humor. I remember muffled chuckles in the theater three times during the scene (and that included me): 1. When Spock gets up and then thinks enough to straighten his tunic. 2. When he walks into the wall and bounces off because he apparently can't see well. 3. When he seems concerned enough to ask Kirk what he thought of his solution to the no-win scenario. [/HERESY ALERT!]

At least to me, in comparison, Kirk's death scene was far more gut-wrenching with the tight shots, sad music, and real fear expressed by Kirk and real emotion expressed by Spock. The ONLY thing it had in common with TWOK was it was a similar situation done much better than the first time. (Now, I'll just go put on a hard hat to withstand all the rocks and garbage that will be thrown at me. Imagine, an original Trek fan going back to TOS disliking Spock's death scene. )
Heresy is right

The only thing "cheesy" about Spock's death scene, was "what the hell was he doing in that thing?" "What the hell was he fixing in there?"
Count me among the heretical. I saw TWOK the week it opened (I've been watching TOS since 1973 at the age of six). While I didn't find Spock's death scene overly "cheesy", I found it less compelling than what I watched in the cinema this past summer (and will soon watch again). The quality of acting from Pine/Quinto sold the scene more effectively than did Shatner/Nimoy (and I enjoy the work of each).

As for the scream--it had a far more compelling contextual justification than Kirk's scream in TWOK. The character arc building over two films for Spock made the moment far more believable than Kirk's motives for his scream. Certainly one is free to disagree, but let's not pretend that the entire scene is one that should be "obviously bad" to all viewers. And in two packed screenings, I did not hear a single sound that remotely hinted at laughter or any other derogatory thought. More than one person was dabbing at their eyes, though. So anecdotal evidence is rendered moot by other anecdotal evidence (as is usually the case).
Save a spot on the pyre for me too. I felt hurt more when the Enterprise was destroyed than when Spock died. Then again, even at as a kid watching it, I knew they'd bring him back. Doesn't make what the character did any less bold, just that you knew they'd never kill off Kirk, Spock, or McCoy and let them stay dead.

Never liked Kirk's "Khaaaaaaaaaaaaan!" Mainly cause 3 minutes later we find out that there was nothing to worry about cause he knew Spock was waiting with the Enterprise. I've no problem with Quinto's yell being there, just that it felt like he was restraining himself a little when he should have been raging it.
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Old September 18 2013, 07:57 PM   #60
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

I certainly believe everyone who posts here has seen TWOK at least once. But I wonder if a significant number of others who winced or even laughed at the scene in STID only know Kirk's shout in TWOK from references in pop culture (like the Seinfeld episode).

I mean, if either one of the two shouts is at all laughable, it's Kirk's. As Ovation pointed out, Spock's shout fit the context of the moment far better than Kirk's in TWOK. The outburst was a true unfiltered expression of heartfelt anguish.
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