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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 18 2013, 02:16 PM   #31
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Sindatur wrote: View Post
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I can understand that Kirk realizes the friendship there because of his mind meld with Spock(prime). But nuSpock has not been friends with Kirk long enough to have established such a strong meaningful bond.
So the strength of friendship is dictated first and foremost by how long you've been friends with someone? That's news to me.
Seriously Yanks? A year of serving together on the same ship, going on missions, basically spending 24 hours a day together when not sleeping, isn't long enough to form a meaningful bond? How long should it take? I'd be willing to bet a week or at most a month under those circumstances is pretty much enough for most people
None of which we've seen.

In hTrek, we saw all those missions, we saw the relationship develop over time. Does the whole theater tear up if Chekov saves Enterprise in TWoK? I think not.

In nuTrek, it's "I pulled you out of a volcano because I'm your friend" and "I want to capture Harrison instead of killing him".

You're telling me that is enough to develop a strong enough bond that Spock throws all logic out the window and goes to kill Khan with his bare hands?

It doesn't work.

In hTrek Kirk needed Spock... in nuTrek, he's been at odds with him half the time.
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Old September 18 2013, 02:23 PM   #32
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Wrath of Khan works perfectly as a standalone movie, just as Into Darkness does. You don't have to have seen all 79 episodes to apreciate Kirk and Spock's friendship in WoK, just as you don't to understand Spock's realization of friendship in ID.
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Old September 18 2013, 02:26 PM   #33
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

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Thank you. I suppose you say his cameo in this movie was good writing too.
I complained loudly about this when I saw the movie the first four times and that Spock would attempt to contact New Vulcan instead of Earth. The fifth-time I was watching and complaining, my wife looked at me and said, "there is probably no one on Earth that he feels he can trust".

And you know what? She was fucking right. Just because you think something is bad, doesn't mean it actually is bad.
Just because you think she was fucking right doesn't mean she is either.

It's a cop-out for nuSpock. Everytime he gets in a pickle he can just call himself.

And what made it worse was - what information did nuSpock obtain that helped him at all? What information obtained did he use to capture/stop/understand Khan?

Nothing, not one useful bit of information.

Remove the scene, it doesn't change anything with the story.

Why does nuSpock need to call anyone? Does he need to hear Spockprime tell him Khan was a bad guy? That he was pissed? That he killed Pike?

Completely useless cameo.
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Old September 18 2013, 02:32 PM   #34
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Wrath of Khan works perfectly as a standalone movie, just as Into Darkness does. You don't have to have seen all 79 episodes to apreciate Kirk and Spock's friendship in WoK, just as you don't to understand Spock's realization of friendship in ID.
I don't believe this to be true at all. The death scene in TWoK is iconic because the relationship they've culivated over the years. TWoK is good enough to be a stand alone movie because all the facts you need to understand it are there. But take someone that doesn't know trek, or hasn't seen TOS and their reaction to Spock's death is different. Did the whole theater get all emotional when Scotty carried that dead trainee up to the bridge? Not even close to the emotion Spocks death envoked. Why? because there is a history there.
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Old September 18 2013, 02:37 PM   #35
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
When you click with someone? Yes it is.
And what have you seen in nuTrek that makes you think they've "clicked"? ... from Spock's perspective?

I would submit it's because you know of their relationship in hTrek.
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Old September 18 2013, 02:47 PM   #36
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

"h"?
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The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
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Old September 18 2013, 02:48 PM   #37
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

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"h"?
Hysterical.
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Old September 18 2013, 02:49 PM   #38
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

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The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
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Old September 18 2013, 02:50 PM   #39
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Yanks wrote: View Post

I don't believe this to be true at all. The death scene in TWoK is iconic because the relationship they've culivated over the years. TWoK is good enough to be a stand alone movie because all the facts you need to understand it are there. But take someone that doesn't know trek, or hasn't seen TOS and their reaction to Spock's death is different. Did the whole theater get all emotional when Scotty carried that dead trainee up to the bridge? Not even close to the emotion Spocks death envoked. Why? because there is a history there.
By this standard there are no movie deaths that should be emotionally resonant because in most movies we are only being introduced to the characters involved.

This is where being a Trek fan is a hindrance to enjoying the movie. There were a good portion of Into Darkness ticket buyers who weren't even born when The Wrath of Khan was released and likely a good portion of those who had never even seen the movie. Should The Dark Knight not have used the Joker because there are people who were exposed to the character in different forms in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's?

The Abramsverse films had two ways to go as far as Kirk and Spock go: they could've picked up mid-five year mission and simply told us they were friends or they could try and show us the evolution of the friendship. They choose the latter. Has it been 100% successful? No. Has it been enjoyable? Hell yes. In the former we pick up with a Kirk and Spock who have been serving together for less than a year if certain interpretations are to be believed and Kirk trusted Spock's judgement enough to strand his best friend on a lifeless planet. There is no doubt in my mind that they were fast friends in the Prime timeline as well and that's not the Abrams films coloring that judgement, that's a personal interpretation I've held for decades.

Not every movie-goer is going to have seen The Wrath of Khan fifty-times and dissected it to the point that they can tell you who was responsible for every single detail.
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Old September 18 2013, 03:02 PM   #40
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Yanks wrote: View Post
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BillJ wrote: View Post

So the strength of friendship is dictated first and foremost by how long you've been friends with someone? That's news to me.
Seriously Yanks? A year of serving together on the same ship, going on missions, basically spending 24 hours a day together when not sleeping, isn't long enough to form a meaningful bond? How long should it take? I'd be willing to bet a week or at most a month under those circumstances is pretty much enough for most people
None of which we've seen.

In hTrek, we saw all those missions, we saw the relationship develop over time. Does the whole theater tear up if Chekov saves Enterprise in TWoK? I think not.

In nuTrek, it's "I pulled you out of a volcano because I'm your friend" and "I want to capture Harrison instead of killing him".

You're telling me that is enough to develop a strong enough bond that Spock throws all logic out the window and goes to kill Khan with his bare hands?

It doesn't work.

In hTrek Kirk needed Spock... in nuTrek, he's been at odds with him half the time.
So, you can't accept they were close friends in the Salt Monster TOS Episode, which was the first episode aired (Or was it Where No One has Gone Before, but same point)?

As a board posting fan, surely you are aware of the comics depicting missions we haven't seen onscreen (I haven't read them, but, I accept this). Also, surely you're aware the creators have said a year has passed between movies.

But, it's pretty clear in the movies themselves. In ST09, they were at each other's throats, and then made up. That "Guy Lore" or "Movie lore" for they'll be besties for life. Additionally, it's obvious time has passed when STiD starts. Kirk makes it obvious he cares about Spock while they are worried about him in the Volcano. The whole report thing, shows Kirk feels a friend betrayed him. the shuttle they use to go to Qu'onos was Harry Mudd's from a mission weeks ago. It's all there in the movie, IMHO, if you just accept and absorb it.

Personally, I would've been very happy with an opening montage of a couple of minutes that showed up quick scenes of missions we are familiar with from TOS, so we can see that time has most definitely passed and that time has been filled with lots of missions together, but, it wasn't necessary, what we needed was indeed provided in the movies.
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Old September 18 2013, 03:12 PM   #41
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Yanks wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Wrath of Khan works perfectly as a standalone movie, just as Into Darkness does. You don't have to have seen all 79 episodes to apreciate Kirk and Spock's friendship in WoK, just as you don't to understand Spock's realization of friendship in ID.
I don't believe this to be true at all. The death scene in TWoK is iconic because the relationship they've culivated over the years. TWoK is good enough to be a stand alone movie because all the facts you need to understand it are there. But take someone that doesn't know trek, or hasn't seen TOS and their reaction to Spock's death is different. Did the whole theater get all emotional when Scotty carried that dead trainee up to the bridge? Not even close to the emotion Spocks death envoked. Why? because there is a history there.
Spock's death is the climax of the movie, and we learn of and see his deep friendship with Kirk from the outset of the movie. Peter Preston was a nobody who lived and died soley to emphasize how ruthless Khan was.

Likewise, we see Spock and Kirk interacting throughout Into Darkness. They bicker (as many friends do), but they like each other, although Spock doesn't quite realize what he has until he loses it.

Kirk and Spock's prior adventures together in TOS do add to the WoK death scene, in the same way that knowledge of Wrath of Khan (and the entirety of Trek) adds layers to Into Darkness (i.e. the death scene being a twisted alternate universe version of the same event) but they're not "required reading", so to speak.
Yanks wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
When you click with someone? Yes it is.
And what have you seen in nuTrek that makes you think they've "clicked"? ... from Spock's perspective?

I would submit it's because you know of their relationship in hTrek.
They bicker like an old married couple.

And as I said above, Spock doesn't realize what a friend he has in Kirk until he loses him. When Kirk is dying, he realizes what Kirk felt when Spock, his friend was about to die on Nibiru. But unlike Kirk earlier, he's utterly helpless to do anything about it.
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Old September 18 2013, 03:14 PM   #42
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

What is hTrek?
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Old September 18 2013, 03:45 PM   #43
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

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Yes, the same Spock that refused to help his dying father.
Because people generally react the same to [somewhat] similar situations when they're 80 the same way they did when they were 25.

But this demonstrates you clearly don't understand the difference.

It was obvious that NimoySpock was always at odds with Sarek and had a much better relationship with his mother--this goes as far back as "Babel."
You need to go watch Journey to Babel again. Spock volunteered to take an experimental drug to produce blood so his dying father could have a life saving operation. It was his strict adherence to his responsibility as first officer in Kirk's absence that justified to him to put his fathers well-being on the back burner.

SPOCK: My first responsibility is to the ship. Our passengers' safety is by Starfleet order of first importance. We are being followed by an alien, possibly hostile, vessel. I cannot relinquish command under these circumstances.

.....

AMANDA: Spock, you must turn command over to somebody else.
SPOCK: Mother, when I was commissioned, I took an oath to carry out responsibilities which were clearly and exactly specified.
AMANDA: Any competent officer can command this ship. Only you can give your father the blood transfusions that he needs to live.
SPOCK: Any competent officer can command this ship under normal circumstances. The circumstances are not normal. We're carrying over one hundred valuable Federation passengers. We're being pursued by an alien ship. We're subject to possible attack. There has been murder and attempted murder on board. I cannot dismiss my duties.
AMANDA: Duty? Your duty is to your father.
SPOCK: I know, but this must take precedence. If I could give the transfusion without loss of time or efficiency, I would. Sarek understands my reason.
AMANDA: Well, I don't. It's not human. That's not a dirty word. You're human, too. Let that part of you come through. Your father's dying.
SPOCK: Mother, how can you have lived on Vulcan so long, married a Vulcan, raised a son on Vulcan, without understanding what it means to be a Vulcan?
AMANDA: If this is what it means, I don't want to know.
SPOCK: It means to adopt a philosophy, a way of life, which is logical and beneficial. We cannot disregard that philosophy merely for personal gain, no matter how important that gain might be.
AMANDA: Nothing is as important as your father's life.
SPOCK: Can you imagine what my father would say if I were to agree, if I were to give up command of this vessel, jeopardise hundreds of lives, risk interplanetary war, all for the life of one person?
AMANDA: When you were five years old and came home stiff-lipped, anguished, because the other boys tormented you saying that you weren't really Vulcan. I watched you, knowing that inside that the human part of you was crying and I cried, too. There must be some part of me in you, some part that I still can reach. If being Vulcan is more important to you, then you'll stand there speaking rules and regulations from Starfleet and Vulcan philosophy, and let your father die. And I'll hate you for the rest of my life.
SPOCK: Mother
AMANDA: Oh, go to him. Now. Please.
SPOCK: I cannot.

It had nothing to do with their "father/son" strained relationship or an emotional "reaction".


This was clearly the case for Quinto Spock as well (as shown in the first act of ST09). But it all changed the instant Amanda was killed. Fast forward to nuSpocks theoretical future, and I guarantee he'll be at nuSarek's bedside should he still develop Vulcan Alzheimer's--which isn't a certainty anymore.
Can you, really? No matter, there'a always Khan's superblood.


...and this is the same timeline for Spock(prime), just earlier.
No.
It most certainly is. Are you saying nuTrek is in a mirror universe?


But nuSpock has not been friends with Kirk long enough to have established such a strong meaningful bond.
Bullshit.
Wow, thanks.

But he was never an out of control emotional loon either.
Because, aside from dying and then magically resurrecting, he lived a pretty uneventful life. Non the less, he was still emotional ... all the time.
His time on Enterprise was "uneventful"? ...and that justifies what?

Thank you. I suppose you say his cameo in this movie was good writing too.
It was an unfortunate necessity. Omitting Spock Prime would have been a plot hole. Having him say, "Yes I'm here. I'm would not normally intervene, but since this the guy everyone in the audience recognizes as Star Trek's uberbad, I'm going to set this one-time exception..." Sets a precedent. This actually part of the reason the villian HAD to be Khan. Now they don't ever have to tap this well again (no matter how many more films they make). Think of it as a prophylactic should something unfortunately happen to Nimoy.

It's actually fastidious, albeit awkward, writing.
This just makes no sense whatsoever. Omitting a conversation that had no bearing on anything would have been a plot-hole?
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Old September 18 2013, 03:48 PM   #44
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

BillJ wrote: View Post
What is hTrek?
Historic Trek
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Old September 18 2013, 03:58 PM   #45
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

The Plot Hole of omitting the Spock Prime cameo would be people screaming, "NuSpock should've contacted SpockPrime to get the goods on Khan", and that complaint would've continued with every movie, any time something came up that Spock Prime knew a version of. This cameo, allowed them to put that resource to rest and answered the question that Spock Prime isn't going to be giving out information every time an event comes up, and trying to reshape the outcome by forewarning and giving an unearned solution to whatever the problem/adversary may be
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