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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old January 11 2014, 03:27 AM   #136
The Wormhole
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
If TWOK came along today, fans wouldn't even know that was supposed to be Scotty's nephew, because that wasn't explained in the theatrical cut.
Which would then lead to a bunch of slash fiction jokes. "Seriously, why is Scotty so interested in young Peter Preston? Just what the hell is going on there?"
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Old January 11 2014, 11:29 AM   #137
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

BigJake wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
That the crew are acting out of character? That the story is absurd? All there.
Yes, but I'm saying it with a puppet on my hand. That's a subtle but important difference, although it may be lost in forum format.

SRSLY though, all statements about characters and writing are not alike just because some of them don't match your Required Level of Enthusiasm. Those are just categories of commentary. (Someone who says the nuTrek characters are written to match popular recollection rather than to match the TOS characters, for example, is speaking a fairly plainly evident fact, whether one likes the outcome or not. You like it, I don't, that doesn't change the fact.) Or, to put it another way, you don't get to pretend that everyone who disagrees with you is a nut.
I never said you were a nut, and in fact I agree with you that the nuTrekkers are based on the perception of the originals - but I think that perception exists for a reason, that it is a valid interpretation of those characters.
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Old January 15 2014, 11:27 PM   #138
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

BigJake wrote: View Post
Yes, but I'm saying it with a puppet on my hand.
<---- Just check my avatar!

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
fans would never ever forgive Scotty bringing his nephew's body to the bridge
The elevators weren't functioning properly. No problem.

BigJake wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
people saying the same things you were 30 years ago
Nobody was saying the same things I am 30 years ago, Daniel.
Yeah they were. Fans complained bitterly about TAS, and TMP, and ST II, and ST III, and so on... See any volume of Signet's "The Best of Trek". No Trek movie has been universally accepted, and each new incarnation has had its own groups of detractors telling others that if only they were "true fans", then they'd see the faults. Nothing new here.
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Old January 16 2014, 12:23 AM   #139
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
Yes, but I'm saying it with a puppet on my hand.
<---- Just check my avatar!
I thought of you just after I posted that.

Yeah they were.
Put it this way: you can locate people who disliked The Empire Strikes Back and people who disliked The Phantom Menace. The fact that both films had critics doesn't remotely mean both films are qualitatively on equal footing. This business of "you're saying what people thirty years ago were saying" is basically an attempt to obscure the actual particulars of context and the content of the films involved; it is a silly game of false equivalence and it needs to go.
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Old January 16 2014, 12:30 AM   #140
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

When they're saying the exact same things they sure are. You won't find anti-ESB complaints that read so similarly to anti-TPM ones as you do with WoK and ID.
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Old January 16 2014, 12:32 AM   #141
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
When they're saying the exact same things they sure are.
I am not confident in your ability to evaluate what actually constitutes "the exact same things" in this context, sorry. (If you can't tell the difference between the perspective of someone like me and that of the author of "Now that I've seen it, and have also had time to mellow, to really think about it, I now find it absolutely, unbearably repulsive in every way except for some of the acting" back in '82, then you are trafficking in false equivalence.)
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Old January 16 2014, 12:36 AM   #142
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

BigJake wrote: View Post
This business of "you're saying what people thirty years ago were saying" is basically an attempt to obscure the actual particulars of context and the content of the films involved; it is a silly game of false equivalence and it needs to go.
No, every Trek film and series has had its angry, loud minority of detractors. For those of us who were around when TAS was unleashed, we've heard the arguments against change before.
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Old January 16 2014, 12:39 AM   #143
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
For those of us who were around when TAS was unleashed, we've heard the arguments against change before.
I'm sure. But all of those arguments are not equivalent just because they happened. There were and are good reasons why some of the series and movies have detractors, and why some more detractors than others. Trying to ignore that will not do.
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Old January 16 2014, 12:40 AM   #144
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Then have a read yourself. You know the links. Step back from your own opinion, and objectively compare and contrast the complaints made against each movie. Mischaracterization, claims that TPTB have no love for or understanding of Trek, that the films are shallow Star Wars shoot-em-ups...
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Old January 16 2014, 12:43 AM   #145
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Step back from your own opinion, and objectively compare and contrast the complaints made against each movie.
Believe it or not, I did this a long time ago. I know this may shock you to learn, but people can in fact arrive at different opinions than yours by perfectly rational processes. That's a thing that can happen.
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Old January 16 2014, 12:45 AM   #146
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

BigJake wrote: View Post
I'm sure. But all of those arguments are not equivalent just because they happened. There were and are good reasons why some of the series and movies have detractors, and why some more detractors than others. Trying to ignore that will not do.
But it's the same argument for each incarnation: "You didn't make this movie the way I would have made it."

Yes, sometimes the movies had more detractors than others, but these - coincidentally? - tally well with profitablilty. "The Final Frontier", "Insurrection" and "Nemesis" all underperformed at the box office, and seemed, to me, to have the most detractors, and probably the least number of repeat visits to view on the big screen.
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Old January 16 2014, 12:51 AM   #147
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Yes, sometimes the movies had more detractors than others, but these - coincidentally? - tally well with profitablilty. "The Final Frontier", "Insurrection" and "Nemesis" all underperformed at the box office, and seemed, to me, to have the most detractors, and probably the least number of repeat visits to view on the big screen.
Although there are times when moving units is not a guarantee of future respectability. Adjusted for inflation, the highest-grossing Trek film of all time was actually The Motion Picture (yes, it beats out both NuTrek films); it's largely rated an underwhelming bore today, an opinion that caught hold early on and for some good reasons.
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Old January 16 2014, 01:00 AM   #148
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

BigJake wrote: View Post
it's largely rated an underwhelming bore today, an opinion that caught hold early on and for some good reasons.
And I would argue that many people who always called it an underwhelming bore have changed their minds over time. When TMP came out, there were people calling for it to be shunted into "an alternate universe" (see "The Best of Trek"). The "Director's Edition" seem to bring about some reevaluated opinions, but also opened up a whole new war: which version of TMP was best.

For me, it's never been boring, and yet TOS fans gleefully told me in 1980 that I'd never last in fandom because I hadn't been there in the 60s and therefore didn't know what "true Star Trek" was. As I said earlier, its the exact same argument with each new incarnation. Some people simply don't want their favourite/first version of Trek to change.
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Old January 16 2014, 01:09 AM   #149
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
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it's largely rated an underwhelming bore today, an opinion that caught hold early on and for some good reasons.
And I would argue that many people who always called it an underwhelming bore have changed their minds over time.
But many haven't. AFAICT it remains the most widespread opinion about that film.

This doesn't mean you or I can't like it, of course. It does mean that we can't fob the criticism off as being "just like every other incarnation" -- there is probably something genuinely specific to that film that is producing the kinds of reactions it has, for good and ill.
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Old January 16 2014, 01:21 AM   #150
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Re: Are we forgetting why Spock is a great character?

BigJake wrote: View Post
there is probably something genuinely specific to that film that is producing the kinds of reactions it has, for good and ill.
Is that not your "false equivalence"?
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