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Old September 19 2013, 03:07 PM   #16
Lindley
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Re: "Even the Lies?" "Especially the Lies"

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
When was all this post-modernist non-sense ever helpful?
I don't know exactly what you're referring to.

I would argue that a belief in the absolute "goodness" of an action can be a very dangerous thing in the wrong hands. It never hurts to try and understand other perspectives, whether you ultimately agree with them or not.
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Old September 19 2013, 03:22 PM   #17
Edit_XYZ
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Re: "Even the Lies?" "Especially the Lies"

Lindley wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
When was all this post-modernist non-sense ever helpful?
I don't know exactly what you're referring to.

I would argue that a belief in the absolute "goodness" of an action can be a very dangerous thing in the wrong hands. It never hurts to try and understand other perspectives, whether you ultimately agree with them or not.
Let me give you a few examples, then:
Science and technology improved the life of billions of humans - including ourselves.
Ethics such as 'slavery is wrong' did the same for millions.

When has post-modernist non-sense:
~'all points of view are valid/justified', ~'scientists are biased/science cannot prove with 100% certainty its conclusions - therefore science is flawed/useless/whatever' + thousands of pages of obtuse text,
ever helped anyone?

BTW, utilitarianism does not claim the absolute 'goodness' of an action. On the contrary, it claims an action may be good or not depending on the situation. And then there's the yin/yang argument (any good deed contains some evil).
As far as I know, some deontologies try to have similar enough views.
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Old September 19 2013, 03:48 PM   #18
Lindley
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Re: "Even the Lies?" "Especially the Lies"

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Lindley wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
When was all this post-modernist non-sense ever helpful?
I don't know exactly what you're referring to.

I would argue that a belief in the absolute "goodness" of an action can be a very dangerous thing in the wrong hands. It never hurts to try and understand other perspectives, whether you ultimately agree with them or not.
Let me give you a few examples, then:
Science and technology improved the life of billions of humans - including ourselves.
Ethics such as 'slavery is wrong' did the same for millions.
No argument. That just shows there are some things that are so clearly beneficial that it's not worth the time to distinguish them from absolute goods; it does not, however, prove the existence of absolute goods, and it doesn't provide any useful guidance on questions which are less clear-cut.

When has post-modernist non-sense:
~'all points of view are valid/justified', ~'scientists are biased/science cannot prove with 100% certainty its conclusions - therefore science is flawed/useless/whatever' + thousands of pages of obtuse text,
ever helped anyone?
First, I doubt anyone here proposes to support either of those positions. Even if they did, as absolute statements they are highly suspect.

The closest I would argue is that all points of view are worth trying to understand. That doesn't validate them in any way, but you can't oppose *or* support a viewpoint before you understand what's driving it.

The second is simply a logical fallacy. Science isn't trying to prove anything, it's trying to explain things in a way that is predictively useful. But you can't correct someone about this misconception unless you understand their viewpoint first, can you?

BTW, utilitarianism does not claim the absolute 'goodness' of an action. On the contrary, it claims an action may be good or not depending on the situation. And then there's the yin/yang argument (any good deed contains some evil).
As far as I know, some deontologies try to have similar enough views.
The "absolute goodness" bit was not strictly related to utilitarianism; it was more to point out one of the flaws in any framework that claims to provide absolute moral guidelines.
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Old September 19 2013, 03:59 PM   #19
Edit_XYZ
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Re: "Even the Lies?" "Especially the Lies"

Lindley wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
When has post-modernist non-sense:
~'all points of view are valid/justified', ~'scientists are biased/science cannot prove with 100% certainty its conclusions - therefore science is flawed/useless/whatever' + thousands of pages of obtuse text,
ever helped anyone?
First, I doubt anyone here proposes to support either of those positions. Even if they did, as absolute statements they are highly suspect.
In this thread alone, R. Star, JarodRussell & co are pretty much there with their ~'good and evil are mere points of view'.

And there's a lot of literature out there (as said, post-modernism) that supports just that.

The closest I would argue is that all points of view are worth trying to understand. That doesn't validate them in any way, but you can't oppose *or* support a viewpoint before you understand what's driving it.

The second is simply a logical fallacy. Science isn't trying to prove anything, it's trying to explain things in a way that is predictively useful. But you can't correct someone about this misconception unless you understand their viewpoint first, can you?
Post-modernists disagree, and support their argument with books-full of obtuse non-sense. Obtuse, I suspect, in order to appear sophisticated and to mask the weakness of their argument (which their critics invariably don't understand).
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Old September 19 2013, 04:15 PM   #20
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Re: "Even the Lies?" "Especially the Lies"

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
In this thread alone, R. Star, JarodRussell & co are pretty much there with their ~'good and evil are mere points of view'.
I don't entirely disagree with them. To argue otherwise assumes some universal morality, and that's a difficult case to make. I won't argue it doesn't exist, but I'm not willing to give it the benefit of the doubt, either.

I do think some things are clearly good and others are clearly evil, but there's plenty of room in between; and it's difficult for anyone to define "clearly" outside of their own cultural context, which is kind of the point.

At best, you could define "good" and "evil" in terms of those social norms common to the entire human race. Our cultural diversity makes even identifying those tricky, but it's theoretically possible.
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Old September 19 2013, 04:18 PM   #21
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Re: "Even the Lies?" "Especially the Lies"

Define 'universal'.*

And ~'good and evil are mere points of view' is very far from your 'some things are clearly good and others are clearly evil, but there's plenty of room in between'.
No 'clearly' anything.

*PS - I see you speak of the entire human race.
Aliens are included in 'universal' or not, as per your definition?
Forehead trek aliens or alien mentally, as well?
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Old September 19 2013, 04:24 PM   #22
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Re: "Even the Lies?" "Especially the Lies"

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Define 'universal'.

And ~'good and evil are mere points of view' is very far from your 'some things are clearly good and others are clearly evil, but there's plenty of room in between'.
No 'clearly' anything.
I don't think they're inherently different perspectives, they just have different emphases. The one I stated emphasizes that some parts of the state space resemble absolute morality; the one they stated emphasizes that other parts of the state space do not. Both recognize that the state space contains a combination of both types of morality, though.
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Old September 19 2013, 04:29 PM   #23
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Re: "Even the Lies?" "Especially the Lies"

Lindley wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Define 'universal'.

And ~'good and evil are mere points of view' is very far from your 'some things are clearly good and others are clearly evil, but there's plenty of room in between'.
No 'clearly' anything.
I don't think they're inherently different perspectives, they just have different emphases. The one I stated emphasizes that some parts of the state space resemble absolute morality; the one they stated emphasizes that other parts of the state space do not. Both recognize that the state space contains a combination of both types of morality, though.
One conception denies you can call something 'good' or 'evil' by using objective criteria and another affirms it.
And there are supposed to not be 'different' conceptions - despite you naming them 'perspectives'?
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Old September 19 2013, 05:49 PM   #24
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Re: "Even the Lies?" "Especially the Lies"

Fine... so how about giving some empirical data on what good and evil is. Since it's an absolute fact as you're suggesting.
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Old September 19 2013, 06:45 PM   #25
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Re: "Even the Lies?" "Especially the Lies"

R. Star, you just established you didn't even read the posts you want to respond to.
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Old September 19 2013, 06:50 PM   #26
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Re: "Even the Lies?" "Especially the Lies"

Because I don't agree with you, it has to be because I didn't read your oh so classy posts? Projection is common for people who can't stand an opposing viewpoint. When your "debating" consists of calling any statement that disagrees with you nonsense and putting words in other people's mouths, don't expect to be taken seriously.
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Old September 19 2013, 08:33 PM   #27
Edit_XYZ
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Re: "Even the Lies?" "Especially the Lies"

R. Star wrote: View Post
Because I don't agree with you, it has to be because I didn't read your oh so classy posts? Projection is common for people who can't stand an opposing viewpoint. When your "debating" consists of calling any statement that disagrees with you nonsense and putting words in other people's mouths, don't expect to be taken seriously.
No, R. Star.
You didn't read my posts because I said expressly that good and evil are not absolute.
And what do you come up with?
R. Star wrote: View Post
Fine... so how about giving some empirical data on what good and evil is. Since it's an absolute fact as you're suggesting.
Apparently, it's your debating that consists of putting words into people's mouths - without even reading the posts.
Worry about being taken seriously yourself.
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Old September 20 2013, 04:33 PM   #28
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Re: "Even the Lies?" "Especially the Lies"

My rankings for DS9's top 10.

You'll note that The Wire is very high. What a great, GREAT episode!! Garak is unparalled in Star Trek!

#1. Trials and Tribble-ations
#2. The Wire
#3. For The Uniform
#4. In The Pale Moonlight
#5. Explorers
#6. The Way of the Warrior
#7. The Visitor
#8. Call To Arms/Sacrifice of Angels
#9. In Purgatory's Shadow
#10. The Search
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Old September 20 2013, 04:36 PM   #29
Pavonis
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Re: "Even the Lies?" "Especially the Lies"

How about that Garak character, eh? If that was his real name....
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Old September 20 2013, 06:09 PM   #30
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Re: "Even the Lies?" "Especially the Lies"

I heard his real name was Ten Lubak.
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