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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old March 20 2014, 10:32 PM   #91
Mage
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Re: Star Trek: Section 31: Disavowed - Dec. 2014?

[QUOTE=Paper Moon;9382858]
ITCH wrote: View Post
Does look like it'll be a great story. Also, that blurb isn't the only source of information on that page... but be forewarned of potentially major spoilers!

Holy s***!!!! I think I saw what you ment.
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Old March 20 2014, 10:45 PM   #92
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Re: Star Trek: Section 31: Disavowed - Dec. 2014?

Mage wrote: View Post
Paper Moon wrote: View Post
Does look like it'll be a great story. Also, that blurb isn't the only source of information on that page... but be forewarned of potentially major spoilers!
Holy s***!!!! I think I saw what you ment.
Don't say I didn't warn you, though!
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Old March 20 2014, 11:09 PM   #93
Deranged Nasat
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Re: Star Trek: Section 31: Disavowed - Dec. 2014?

You make some very good points, Paper Moon. I can certainly see the sense and the potential impact in having Bashir's final scene in A Ceremony of Losses being the last word on the character, the last we ever saw of him. (Essentially, it's not dissimilar to my hope that we never see William Ross again following his retirement, though obviously more substantial in its impact). It would indeed have been a powerful statement. That said, it does seem that Bashir is permanently out of Starfleet now and has more or less been severed from his pre-Fall life, regardless of
. I'm interested in seeing where Mack takes him next. (I'm assuming that Mack isn't going to want to undermine the powerful ending to one of his own works, so I imagine Bashir won't be meeting O'Brien for beer and darts from now on ).
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Old March 21 2014, 02:37 AM   #94
The Wormhole
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Re: Star Trek: Section 31: Disavowed - Dec. 2014?

Mage wrote: View Post
Paper Moon wrote: View Post
Does look like it'll be a great story. Also, that blurb isn't the only source of information on that page... but be forewarned of potentially major spoilers!
Holy s***!!!! I think I saw what you ment.
I think I caught that too. But let's be honest, it isn't particularly surprising.
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Old March 22 2014, 06:13 AM   #95
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Re: Star Trek: Section 31: Disavowed - Dec. 2014?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Mage wrote: View Post
Paper Moon wrote: View Post
Does look like it'll be a great story. Also, that blurb isn't the only source of information on that page... but be forewarned of potentially major spoilers!
Holy s***!!!! I think I saw what you ment.
I think I caught that too. But let's be honest, it isn't particularly surprising.
No, not particularly. But still fun to notice like this.

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
You make some very good points, Paper Moon. I can certainly see the sense and the potential impact in having Bashir's final scene in A Ceremony of Losses being the last word on the character, the last we ever saw of him. (Essentially, it's not dissimilar to my hope that we never see William Ross again following his retirement, though obviously more substantial in its impact). It would indeed have been a powerful statement. That said, it does seem that Bashir is permanently out of Starfleet now and has more or less been severed from his pre-Fall life, regardless of
. I'm interested in seeing where Mack takes him next. (I'm assuming that Mack isn't going to want to undermine the powerful ending to one of his own works, so I imagine Bashir won't be meeting O'Brien for beer and darts from now on ).
Yeah, I agree; the Ross analogy is particularly good. (Although it personally wouldn't bother me as much if we saw what he was up to now. And I really would love to get some TLE material about him.) The point about O'Brien, beer and darts is also spot-on.

I think of it like this: in the context of Zero Sum Game, Plagues of Night, Raise the Dawn, A Ceremony of Losses, The Poisoned Chalice and, presumably, Disavowed, that is to say, Bashir's long-running narrative, the events of The Poisoned Chalice make thematic sense. For almost two decades now, from the on-air series to the first relaunch to the second relaunch, various writers have built up Section 31 as Bashir's defining conflict. Bashir's ultimate story will be about him versus them.

We can retroactively add some material to this arc: Bashir's obsession with spy games takes on an ironic twist in light of his later story. Obviously his genetic enhancements intertwine thematically with Section 31's efforts to play god. And his youthful idealism is the ultimate contrast to 31's cynical pragmatism.

So, having his arc essentially end with him saving the Andorians (in the process, I might add, giving them genetic enhancements not dissimilar to his own) would be somewhat incongruous with what the books have done with him thus far.

(That said– I would be largely mollified if Bashir had been released, but after years of captivity, not 17 days. That would still have allowed him to move on to deal with 31, but wouldn't have so flagrantly undercut the message of A Ceremony of Losses, and The Fall as a whole [see below].)

While I sometimes wish the books had taken a different direction with Bashir and explored other parts of his character, the overall story we are getting with him is engaging and compelling. In the larger context, his premature release from incarceration does make sense.

But, as I said before: in the more specific context of Revelation and Dust, The Crimson Shadow, A Ceremony of Losses, The Poisoned Chalice and Peaceable Kingdoms, Bashir's release totally undercuts the story that's being told, the themes being conveyed.

I guess the needs of the many stories outweighed the needs of the few. (But actually though.)
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Old March 22 2014, 07:33 PM   #96
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Re: Star Trek: Section 31: Disavowed - Dec. 2014?

For what it's worth, when I put Bashir in the slammer at the end of A Ceremony of Losses, I meant for him to stay there until I came back for him in Disavowed. Unfortunately, that decision was not mine to make, so I had to "play the ball as it lies" when I wrote Disavowed.
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Old March 22 2014, 07:41 PM   #97
Clark Terrell
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Re: Star Trek: Section 31: Disavowed - Dec. 2014?

David Mack wrote: View Post
For what it's worth, when I put Bashir in the slammer at the end of A Ceremony of Losses, I meant for him to stay there until I came back for him in Disavowed. Unfortunately, that decision was not mine to make, so I had to "play the ball as it lies" when I wrote Disavowed.
That's what I figured when I read it and was surprised that things ended up the way they did in The Fall. OTOH, it's not as though anything you wrote in that passage as untrue. Bashir's internal monologue could still have been accurate while he was sitting in his cell.
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Old March 22 2014, 08:50 PM   #98
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Re: Star Trek: Section 31: Disavowed - Dec. 2014?

Memory Beta is listing Disavowed as a DS9 novel - will it be labelled like as such or as Star Trek: Section 31?
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Old March 22 2014, 09:50 PM   #99
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Re: Star Trek: Section 31: Disavowed - Dec. 2014?

It will be a Section 31 novel, not a DS9 novel.
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Old March 25 2014, 11:11 PM   #100
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Re: Star Trek: Section 31: Disavowed - Dec. 2014?

I wonder how this will tie into the frame story of ENT: The Good That Men Do since that novel mentions the downfall of Section 31. I revile Section 31 as do lots of other fans, but I don't want them to go down too soon.
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Old March 26 2014, 12:10 AM   #101
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Re: Star Trek: Section 31: Disavowed - Dec. 2014?

I just checked my copy of The Good That Men Do because I was curious about the same thing, but the prologue and epilogue featuring Jake and Nog is only described as being set in "the early twenty-fifth century," without specifying a year. Also, it says that it hadn't been too long ago (before the time of Jake and Nog's meeting, that is) that Section 31 had finally been exposed; it didn't actually outright say that Section 31 had been defeated or disbanded. Jake hoped they had been rooted out once and for all, but I imagine Andy Mangels and Michael A. Martin left it ambiguous for a reason.
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Old March 26 2014, 01:27 AM   #102
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Re: Star Trek: Section 31: Disavowed - Dec. 2014?

Well it doesn't say that Section 31's agents were forced to stand trial for their actions?
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Old March 26 2014, 03:33 AM   #103
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Re: Star Trek: Section 31: Disavowed - Dec. 2014?

Well, this novel likely takes place no later than 2386 or so, meaning what was in The Good that Men Do is still at least 15-20 years away. Not really a priority for this book to handle.
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Old March 26 2014, 05:59 PM   #104
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Re: Star Trek: Section 31: Disavowed - Dec. 2014?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Well, this novel likely takes place no later than 2386 or so, meaning what was in The Good that Men Do is still at least 15-20 years away. Not really a priority for this book to handle.
Unless we interpret the line in TGTMD as specifying S31 was exposed no earlier than the 25th century.

But exposing isn't the same as bringing down. S31 may survive the exposing in the 25th century (2409? ) or may have been crushed years before.
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Old March 26 2014, 10:09 PM   #105
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Re: Star Trek: Section 31: Disavowed - Dec. 2014?

OK, go and get it!

Prebuy price: £4.31

http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Star.../9781476753089
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