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Old September 18 2013, 04:45 AM   #16
Anwar
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

If a pathetic scout ships can wipe out entire flotillas of your best vessels and for all you know they have massive Battleships out there too, then yeah it usually is a good idea not to go in guns blazing until you know more.

Of course, DS9 did this same story with the Changlings and NO ONE CARED.
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Old September 19 2013, 10:59 PM   #17
Yanks
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

Isolinear wrote: View Post
This episode always bothered me. Actually, I think it is the worst Voyager episode. Ruined Scorpion 1+2 for me. Now that I think of it, I'd rather watch Threshold than "In the Flesh". The Ultimate Xenophobic race, best friends of mankind in 40 minutes, thanks to Chakotay. Oh, dear.

Also, it's full of plot holes. WHY is the staging area there in the first place, THOUSANDS of lightyears from Earth? There are supposedly more of these domes, but this Boothby character happens to be the big leader who can stop every Sp8472? Quite a coincidence.

"These are the Voyages..." is a masterpiece compared to this drivel.
Alright...



In the Flesh isn't the greatest episode, I'll grant you that but all they did was neuter some really cool bad guys. They didn't neuter an entire series!!
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Old September 20 2013, 12:07 AM   #18
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

I do like that Chak pashed a gigantic vicious insect.
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Old September 20 2013, 01:42 PM   #19
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

Isolinear wrote: View Post
This episode always bothered me. Actually, I think it is the worst Voyager episode. Ruined Scorpion 1+2 for me. Now that I think of it, I'd rather watch Threshold than "In the Flesh". The Ultimate Xenophobic race, best friends of mankind in 40 minutes, thanks to Chakotay. Oh, dear.

Also, it's full of plot holes. WHY is the staging area there in the first place, THOUSANDS of lightyears from Earth? There are supposedly more of these domes, but this Boothby character happens to be the big leader who can stop every Sp8472? Quite a coincidence.

"These are the Voyages..." is a masterpiece compared to this drivel.
I think you need to rewatch the episode again, you're missing details that explain your questions. The "staging" area is there because 8472 thinks that humans are dangerous, they are learning to act like them so they can get some spies into the Federation and observe them to see if they are truly a threat or not

Bothby was far from the "big leader who can stop every 8472" watch the episode, he was kind of the leader of that particular group, he said that he would go to the other groups and propose the peace agreement to them, but he was doubtful they would agree to it.
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Old September 20 2013, 02:46 PM   #20
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

KaraBear wrote: View Post
Isolinear wrote: View Post
This episode always bothered me. Actually, I think it is the worst Voyager episode. Ruined Scorpion 1+2 for me. Now that I think of it, I'd rather watch Threshold than "In the Flesh". The Ultimate Xenophobic race, best friends of mankind in 40 minutes, thanks to Chakotay. Oh, dear.

Also, it's full of plot holes. WHY is the staging area there in the first place, THOUSANDS of lightyears from Earth? There are supposedly more of these domes, but this Boothby character happens to be the big leader who can stop every Sp8472? Quite a coincidence.

"These are the Voyages..." is a masterpiece compared to this drivel.
I think you need to rewatch the episode again, you're missing details that explain your questions. The "staging" area is there because 8472 thinks that humans are dangerous, they are learning to act like them so they can get some spies into the Federation and observe them to see if they are truly a threat or not

Bothby was far from the "big leader who can stop every 8472" watch the episode, he was kind of the leader of that particular group, he said that he would go to the other groups and propose the peace agreement to them, but he was doubtful they would agree to it.
This
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Old September 20 2013, 06:26 PM   #21
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

My biggest issue with the episode isn't the shaky peace treaty but why they're even bothering with the whole infiltration thing. I mean they can pop out anywhere and blow up a planet in around ten seconds at demonstrated in Scorpion. Even if every Starfleet vessel is equipped with biological weapons like they erroneously think, it stands to reason they can wipe out the Federation easy enough anyways. It's like going to the trouble of infiltrating an ant hill instead of just opening a can of bug spray and soaking them.
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Old September 20 2013, 06:40 PM   #22
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

R. Star wrote: View Post
My biggest issue with the episode isn't the shaky peace treaty but why they're even bothering with the whole infiltration thing. I mean they can pop out anywhere and blow up a planet in around ten seconds at demonstrated in Scorpion. Even if every Starfleet vessel is equipped with biological weapons like they erroneously think, it stands to reason they can wipe out the Federation easy enough anyways. It's like going to the trouble of infiltrating an ant hill instead of just opening a can of bug spray and soaking them.
you're assuming they'r an aggressive species, that they would attack first then ask questions. If they're a peacful race then they wouldn't want to inflict unecessary damage
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Old September 20 2013, 07:20 PM   #23
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

R. Star wrote: View Post
My biggest issue with the episode isn't the shaky peace treaty but why they're even bothering with the whole infiltration thing. I mean they can pop out anywhere and blow up a planet in around ten seconds at demonstrated in Scorpion. Even if every Starfleet vessel is equipped with biological weapons like they erroneously think, it stands to reason they can wipe out the Federation easy enough anyways. It's like going to the trouble of infiltrating an ant hill instead of just opening a can of bug spray and soaking them.
I think they were worried about us popping in their domain and releasing those little buggers.
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Old September 20 2013, 07:37 PM   #24
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

Yanks wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
My biggest issue with the episode isn't the shaky peace treaty but why they're even bothering with the whole infiltration thing. I mean they can pop out anywhere and blow up a planet in around ten seconds at demonstrated in Scorpion. Even if every Starfleet vessel is equipped with biological weapons like they erroneously think, it stands to reason they can wipe out the Federation easy enough anyways. It's like going to the trouble of infiltrating an ant hill instead of just opening a can of bug spray and soaking them.
I think they were worried about us popping in their domain and releasing those little buggers.
I think so.

8472 had every reason to assume the worst about the federation. First we side with the borg in their war (as far as they're concerned), shoot at them with the nanoprobe weapons, then we send an injured helpless member of their species over to the hirogen ship to be tortured and killed. Of course they're worried about the federation
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Old September 20 2013, 07:50 PM   #25
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

KaraBear wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
My biggest issue with the episode isn't the shaky peace treaty but why they're even bothering with the whole infiltration thing. I mean they can pop out anywhere and blow up a planet in around ten seconds at demonstrated in Scorpion. Even if every Starfleet vessel is equipped with biological weapons like they erroneously think, it stands to reason they can wipe out the Federation easy enough anyways. It's like going to the trouble of infiltrating an ant hill instead of just opening a can of bug spray and soaking them.
you're assuming they'r an aggressive species, that they would attack first then ask questions. If they're a peacful race then they wouldn't want to inflict unecessary damage
"The weak shall perish" doesn't exactly sound like something a peaceful race would be going around saying.
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Old September 20 2013, 07:51 PM   #26
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
KaraBear wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
My biggest issue with the episode isn't the shaky peace treaty but why they're even bothering with the whole infiltration thing. I mean they can pop out anywhere and blow up a planet in around ten seconds at demonstrated in Scorpion. Even if every Starfleet vessel is equipped with biological weapons like they erroneously think, it stands to reason they can wipe out the Federation easy enough anyways. It's like going to the trouble of infiltrating an ant hill instead of just opening a can of bug spray and soaking them.
you're assuming they'r an aggressive species, that they would attack first then ask questions. If they're a peacful race then they wouldn't want to inflict unecessary damage
"The weak shall perish" doesn't exactly sound like something a peaceful race would be going around saying.
maybe
or maybe they were just acting that way to what they percieved to be an enemy
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Old September 20 2013, 07:51 PM   #27
R. Star
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

To be fair... it would be an injustice to judge all people by what one of them says in the heat of battle. What if that was Patton out there running his mouth saying something inflammatory for example, would you think all Americans are blowhards who want to conquer the world?

The only thing 8472 is guilty of is maybe using excessive force to defend themselves.
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Old September 20 2013, 07:53 PM   #28
Yanks
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

KaraBear wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
My biggest issue with the episode isn't the shaky peace treaty but why they're even bothering with the whole infiltration thing. I mean they can pop out anywhere and blow up a planet in around ten seconds at demonstrated in Scorpion. Even if every Starfleet vessel is equipped with biological weapons like they erroneously think, it stands to reason they can wipe out the Federation easy enough anyways. It's like going to the trouble of infiltrating an ant hill instead of just opening a can of bug spray and soaking them.
I think they were worried about us popping in their domain and releasing those little buggers.
I think so.

8472 had every reason to assume the worst about the federation. First we side with the borg in their war (as far as they're concerned), shoot at them with the nanoprobe weapons, then we send an injured helpless member of their species over to the hirogen ship to be tortured and killed. Of course they're worried about the federation
True, humans have proven to be anything but stable.

I think I remember Boothby bringing up those nanaprobes in negotiation with Janeway as well.
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Old September 20 2013, 07:56 PM   #29
KaraBear
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

R. Star wrote: View Post
To be fair... it would be an injustice to judge all people by what one of them says in the heat of battle. What if that was Patton out there running his mouth saying something inflammatory for example, would you think all Americans are blowhards who want to conquer the world?

The only thing 8472 is guilty of is maybe using excessive force to defend themselves.
don't you go agreeing with me again
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Old September 21 2013, 02:33 AM   #30
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Re: In The Flesh: The Neutering of Specied 8472

KaraBear wrote: View Post
R. Star wrote: View Post
My biggest issue with the episode isn't the shaky peace treaty but why they're even bothering with the whole infiltration thing. I mean they can pop out anywhere and blow up a planet in around ten seconds at demonstrated in Scorpion. Even if every Starfleet vessel is equipped with biological weapons like they erroneously think, it stands to reason they can wipe out the Federation easy enough anyways. It's like going to the trouble of infiltrating an ant hill instead of just opening a can of bug spray and soaking them.
you're assuming they'r an aggressive species, that they would attack first then ask questions. If they're a peacful race then they wouldn't want to inflict unecessary damage
If they were not aggressive, why was Kes saying that they are extreme social Darwinists who felt like they had the right to cleanse of the universe of all "inferior, weaker" species?

Just because they were not the aggressors in the conflict with the Borg, doesn't make them good guys.

It really makes Kes and the rest of the Voyager crew seem really stupid for allying with the Borg in the scorpion, if Species 8472 were not as evil as Kes made them out to be.

R. Star wrote: View Post
To be fair... it would be an injustice to judge all people by what one of them says in the heat of battle. What if that was Patton out there running his mouth saying something inflammatory for example, would you think all Americans are blowhards who want to conquer the world?

The only thing 8472 is guilty of is maybe using excessive force to defend themselves.
Why didn't Kes pick up the feelings of any other members of Species 8472, who weren't having extreme social Darwinist genocidal thoughts. Why were they thinking about intergalactic genocide, when they had a grudge against the Borg and no one else?

Imagine if in Dr. who, the Daleks just decided that they really didn't want to commit intergalactic genocide, that was a misunderstanding, wouldn't that undermine everything we knew about them and ruin them in the process?

This whole thing comes off as a sloppy retcon, Species 8472 goes from scary, dogmatic, genocidal, social Darwinists into scared little sheep who were just misunderstood, those are not the same characters, no matter what kind of logical back flips you try to use to justify this change, its a change and it comes out of nowhere.
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