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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 15 2013, 09:16 PM   #16
Ln X
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Re: Kirk Emotionally Compromised? (spoiler)

It's no surprise Kirk is emotionally compromised plus it does not help that he's only been a Starfleet officer for a year or so. Would have been cool to see Spock take command because of Kirk being too emotionally compromised or perhaps even out of his league.

But I do wonder just how big of a father figure Pike was to Kirk.
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Old September 15 2013, 09:21 PM   #17
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Re: Kirk Emotionally Compromised? (spoiler)

I kind of find the emotionally compromising spock plan a bit far fetched in Trek 09. There wasn't anything stopping Spock from calmly telling the security guys to remove Kirk again. He got really lucky.
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Old September 15 2013, 09:49 PM   #18
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Re: Kirk Emotionally Compromised? (spoiler)

Ln X wrote: View Post
It's no surprise Kirk is emotionally compromised plus it does not help that he's only been a Starfleet officer for a year or so. Would have been cool to see Spock take command because of Kirk being too emotionally compromised or perhaps even out of his league.

But I do wonder just how big of a father figure Pike was to Kirk.
I would imagine Pike had become something of a father/mentor to the degree where Kirk did grow to see him as the father he never had. Kirk's grief is palpable during Pike's death scene. You can see that anger, confusion, and loss just pouring out of him. It's also nice to note that Bruce Greenwood was just perfectly apt in his role, and expressed that fatherly trait with aplomb.
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Old September 15 2013, 11:56 PM   #19
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Re: Kirk Emotionally Compromised? (spoiler)

J. Allen wrote: View Post

I would imagine Pike had become something of a father/mentor to the degree where Kirk did grow to see him as the father he never had. Kirk's grief is palpable during Pike's death scene. You can see that anger, confusion, and loss just pouring out of him. It's also nice to note that Bruce Greenwood was just perfectly apt in his role, and expressed that fatherly trait with aplomb.
Pike is possibly some kind of mentor but outside of interactions whilst in the job, just how well did Kirk know Pike on a personal basis? Given this limited interaction would it be enough for Kirk to consider Pike to be the father he never had or the role model he never had?

I still can't understand why Kirk had a meltdown when Pike died.
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Old September 16 2013, 12:00 AM   #20
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Re: Kirk Emotionally Compromised? (spoiler)

Ln X wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post

I would imagine Pike had become something of a father/mentor to the degree where Kirk did grow to see him as the father he never had. Kirk's grief is palpable during Pike's death scene. You can see that anger, confusion, and loss just pouring out of him. It's also nice to note that Bruce Greenwood was just perfectly apt in his role, and expressed that fatherly trait with aplomb.
Pike is possibly some kind of mentor but outside of interactions whilst in the job, just how well did Kirk know Pike on a personal basis? Given this limited interaction would it be enough for Kirk to consider Pike to be the father he never had or the role model he never had?

I still can't understand why Kirk had a meltdown when Pike died.
Seriously?
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Old September 16 2013, 12:05 AM   #21
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Re: Kirk Emotionally Compromised? (spoiler)

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post
It's no surprise Kirk is emotionally compromised plus it does not help that he's only been a Starfleet officer for a year or so. Would have been cool to see Spock take command because of Kirk being too emotionally compromised or perhaps even out of his league.

But I do wonder just how big of a father figure Pike was to Kirk.
I would imagine Pike had become something of a father/mentor to the degree where Kirk did grow to see him as the father he never had. Kirk's grief is palpable during Pike's death scene. You can see that anger, confusion, and loss just pouring out of him. It's also nice to note that Bruce Greenwood was just perfectly apt in his role, and expressed that fatherly trait with aplomb.
Yes! Had Pike been in more scenes, Greenwood might have stolen ST09.
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Old September 16 2013, 12:29 AM   #22
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Re: Kirk Emotionally Compromised? (spoiler)

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Ln X wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post

I would imagine Pike had become something of a father/mentor to the degree where Kirk did grow to see him as the father he never had. Kirk's grief is palpable during Pike's death scene. You can see that anger, confusion, and loss just pouring out of him. It's also nice to note that Bruce Greenwood was just perfectly apt in his role, and expressed that fatherly trait with aplomb.
Pike is possibly some kind of mentor but outside of interactions whilst in the job, just how well did Kirk know Pike on a personal basis? Given this limited interaction would it be enough for Kirk to consider Pike to be the father he never had or the role model he never had?

I still can't understand why Kirk had a meltdown when Pike died.
Seriously?
I would like to get to the bottom of this because it bugged me. I got why Kirk would be upset about Pike's death, but it was like Kirk had lost a parent or something. I just want to find out if there is a reason for Kirk's powerful reaction to Pike's death, preferably I want to find a reason other than melodrama for the sake of melodrama. That's important because Kirk's got to be more than a caricature.
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Old September 16 2013, 01:07 AM   #23
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Re: Kirk Emotionally Compromised? (spoiler)

Pike was probably as close to a father figure Kirk had. Especially given that it's implied Pike knew his father in some fashion, and that Pike tried to help Kirk find a direction in life. Losing someone like that in your life will be an aggressive kick to the stomach.
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Old September 16 2013, 04:52 AM   #24
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Re: Kirk Emotionally Compromised? (spoiler)

Ln X wrote: View Post
I would like to get to the bottom of this because it bugged me. I got why Kirk would be upset about Pike's death, but it was like Kirk had lost a parent or something. I just want to find out if there is a reason for Kirk's powerful reaction to Pike's death, preferably I want to find a reason other than melodrama for the sake of melodrama. That's important because Kirk's got to be more than a caricature.
Try to think of someone whom you consider a mentor; someone who has helped guide you toward a path that is far greater than the one you were on. This person obviously cares deeply about you, and so you build a relationship with that person. Then, said person is murdered right in front of you. That is bound to have a profoundly deep effect on your emotional well-being. That mentor, that anchor of stability, that lighthouse, is now gone. Not just gone, but murdered.

Add to it that Pike served with Kirk's father, so there's a tenuous connection to the man Kirk never had the good fortune to know. Remember, too, that prime universe Spock told Kirk, while they were in the cave on Delta Vega, that Kirk's father lived long enough to see him become Captain of the Enterprise.

So, in the new universe, that man (his father) is dead, and the man who served with him, who took Kirk under his wing, who helped guide him, who had faith in him, who stood by him, now he's gone by an act of malice. The world has suddenly become senseless, strange, and cruel to take away Kirk's father not once, but twice.

That is why Kirk broke down.
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Old September 16 2013, 10:44 AM   #25
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Re: Kirk Emotionally Compromised? (spoiler)

J. Allen wrote: View Post
Try to think of someone whom you consider a mentor; someone who has helped guide you toward a path that is far greater than the one you were on. This person obviously cares deeply about you, and so you build a relationship with that person. Then, said person is murdered right in front of you. That is bound to have a profoundly deep effect on your emotional well-being. That mentor, that anchor of stability, that lighthouse, is now gone. Not just gone, but murdered.

Add to it that Pike served with Kirk's father, so there's a tenuous connection to the man Kirk never had the good fortune to know. Remember, too, that prime universe Spock told Kirk, while they were in the cave on Delta Vega, that Kirk's father lived long enough to see him become Captain of the Enterprise.

So, in the new universe, that man (his father) is dead, and the man who served with him, who took Kirk under his wing, who helped guide him, who had faith in him, who stood by him, now he's gone by an act of malice. The world has suddenly become senseless, strange, and cruel to take away Kirk's father not once, but twice.

That is why Kirk broke down.
That is definitely one valid interpretation of Kirk's connection with Pike.

But between Pike suggesting to Kirk to join Starfleet and Kirk graduating, it is unclear if Kirk and Pike had any other meaningful (and personal) conversations again. Then when Kirk became captain it seems the extent of his interactions with Pike where those meetings where Kirk had broken some regulations or the Prime Directive. This is of course evidenced in STID where you get the feeling that Pike and Kirk have had this conversation before, and if anything I got the impression that Pike was a thorn in Kirk's side. Pike was the one threaten to take Kirk away from his dream job.

But Pike is one of several people who pointed Kirk in the right direction and from which Kirk matured. Consider Prime Universe Spock mind-melding with NuKirk. There's a loose friendship between Pike and Kirk but I'm not sure it is enough for Kirk to consider Pike a father figure.

The only reason for Kirk's meltdown I can think of is a case of realising how much you cared for someone after they have died. But that comes back to whether Kirk subconsciously considered Pike to be the father he never had. Given what we do know from the two Abram's ST films, Pike and Kirk definitely had a professional relationship but that may have been it.
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Old September 16 2013, 05:51 PM   #26
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Re: Kirk Emotionally Compromised? (spoiler)

I thought it was pretty obvious that Pike and Kirk had a sort of father-son relationship.
Maybe that's me reading something that isn't there between the lines.

I suppose when Pike 'demotes' Kirk the implication is that he and Kirk were close. That they hadn't just met twice.
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Old January 1 2014, 09:48 PM   #27
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Re: Kirk Emotionally Compromised? (spoiler)

Pike helped him get his job back as well and just as suddenly he dies. I mean Kirk hasn't had time to ask his forgivness for being such a pain in the butt or even how much he meant to him this whole time.
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Old January 5 2014, 03:41 AM   #28
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Re: Kirk Emotionally Compromised? (spoiler)

I personally have no doubts that Pike and Kirk had a close father son relationship. In the bar scene when Pike sits down and tells Kirk that he wants him as his first officer, he says he found him because he knows him well enough to know where to look. The fact that Kirk looked away and teared up is indicative of his emotional attachment to Pike. Kirk's full on crying scene when he realizes Pike is dead further points towards the closeness of their relationship.

Again just personal opinion, but the fact that Pike went to bat and called in favors to get Jim appointed as his first office is another factor that points towards their close relationship.

These are my thoughts and for me are the main factor in why Kirk was emotionally compromised.
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Old January 8 2014, 02:47 AM   #29
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Re: Kirk Emotionally Compromised? (spoiler)

When I started this thread, my unasked question was going to be if Spock does relieve Kirk on these grounds, how does the plot resolve, specifically the crisis with Khan, without Kirk in command? I had visions of Spock coming to Kirk in his quarters and (in an inversion of the previous film) admitting that the latter was the right person to sit in the captain's chair.

But then I remembered that during the crisis with Khan in STID, Kirk is dead. Spock is in command anyway, so my whole what-if question kinda falls flat. Oh well.
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Old January 8 2014, 02:54 AM   #30
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Re: Kirk Emotionally Compromised? (spoiler)

Unfortunately - or maybe not unfortunately - writer's amnesia will set in when the plots of future missions do not require, or are inconvenienced by, the Emotionally Compromised regulation and they forget the rules they've created. Ignoring your own rules at your own convenience is not something good writers do. They recommend setting up rules you can follow and then live or die by those rules. Or you can kill the Captain as a detour around them.
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