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General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

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Old September 16 2013, 11:44 AM   #76
CommishSleer
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Isolinear wrote: View Post

If you were a kid in the 70's, the old Battlestar was a fine show. But that was back then...
Nope

It had Muffit II. That alone is enough to destroy any show.

It was totally sexist.

The only good thing about it were the hot pilots in sexy uniforms and coolish ships.
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Old September 16 2013, 01:17 PM   #77
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Re: Not real Star Trek

However, the nuBSG protagonists had severe problems to reflect on such considerations and - interestingly - seldom had to pay a price for their actions which IMHO is just as naive as the original BSG presentation had been as a whole.
Well, Cally lost her life because of her neurotic bigotry, and thanks to her collaboration and personal betrayal, Ellen Tigh woke up with a brand new prosthetic body. On the plus side, Gaeta got his itch taken care of.
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Old September 16 2013, 01:55 PM   #78
Robert Comsol
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Re: Not real Star Trek

I was thinking more along the lines of constant insubordination, threatening superior officers and Ms. President.

They didn't even seem to have a penalty for that like depriving the offenders of their food rations.

Bob
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Old September 16 2013, 02:06 PM   #79
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I was thinking more along the lines of constant insubordination, threatening superior officers and Ms. President.

They didn't even seem to have a penalty for that like depriving the offenders of their food rations.

Bob
Yeah, the constant forgiving attitude towards the main characters who stepped out of line became more of a joke as the series went on.
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Old September 16 2013, 02:13 PM   #80
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Not real Star Trek

^Like I said, Gaeta received treatment for his itch because of his insubordination.
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Old September 16 2013, 02:25 PM   #81
Robert Comsol
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Re: Not real Star Trek

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Yeah, the constant forgiving attitude towards the main characters who stepped out of line became more of a joke as the series went on.
Except for the Pegasus. The debatable methods of its CO just emphasized how lax and lame Adama handled his offenders in comparison.

Bob
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Old September 16 2013, 03:22 PM   #82
Greg Cox
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Isolinear wrote: View Post
If you were a kid in the 70's, the old Battlestar was a fine show. But that was back then...
This. There's an old saying that "The golden age of science fiction is twelve" and I suspect that a lot depends on how old you were when you first encountered the original BSG.

I was in college when BSG debuted, and, as an oh-so-sophisticated freshman, I found it hopelessly juvenile compared to the sf shows I'd grown up on: TOS, The Twilight Zone, The Outer Limits. I remember bitching to my friends that TV sf had actually gone backwards, intellectually, and that Glen Larson was basically the second coming of Irwin Allen . . . .

By contrast, the new show, although often bleak as hell, was, at its best, extremely intense and compelling television, featuring complicated, unpredictable characters that were a lot more messed-up and three-dimensional than their 70s counterparts. Heck, Roslin alone was more interesting than pretty much every character on the old show. IMHO.
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Old September 16 2013, 03:37 PM   #83
Robert Comsol
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
... extremely intense and compelling television, featuring complicated, unpredictable characters that were a lot more messed-up ...
I see these everyday on TV in the news (and reality shows which I usually try to avoid), so I'm really at a loss to see why that was anything special or unusual about nuBSG.

Bob
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Old September 16 2013, 03:41 PM   #84
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
... extremely intense and compelling television, featuring complicated, unpredictable characters that were a lot more messed-up ...
I see these everyday on TV in the news (and reality shows which I usually try to avoid), so I'm really at a loss to see why that was anything special or unusual about nuBSG.

Bob
So you're saying that science fiction shouldn't resemble reality as far as people are concerned?

I'm not sure Rod Serling would agree . . . .
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Old September 16 2013, 04:13 PM   #85
Robert Comsol
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
So you're saying that science fiction shouldn't resemble reality as far as people are concerned?
No, I'm saying that science fiction should take real people, put them into "What if" scenarios and watch how they use imagination and creativity to overcome problems and handle challenging situations

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
I'm not sure Rod Serling would agree . . . .
Since you mentioned Mr. Serling I think he wrote one episode which essentially wraps up what nuBSG was mostly about. It was called "The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street".

Bob
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Old September 16 2013, 04:22 PM   #86
Greg Cox
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
So you're saying that science fiction shouldn't resemble reality as far as people are concerned?
No, I'm saying that science fiction should take real people, put them into "What if" scenarios and watch how they use imagination and creativity to overcome problems and handle challenging situations

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
I'm not sure Rod Serling would agree . . . .
Since you mentioned Mr. Serling I think he wrote one episode which essentially wraps up what nuBSG was mostly about. It was called "The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street".

Bob
Exactly. And that was a great episode!

There's no rule that says that sf has to be about "overcoming problems" through creativity and imagination. There's a long tradition of grim, dystopian, often harrowing sf. Look at Wells, Dick, Bradbury, Sturgeon, etc. The dark side of humanity has always been part of sf's subject matter as well. Look at Planet of the Apes, etc.

Just to be clear. I'm not saying that every show needs to be as grim and morally ambiguous as NuBSG. Nobody wants a dark and gritty version of FARSCAPE or CLEOPATRA 2525. But it worked for nuBSG, and produced some powerful television.
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Old September 16 2013, 06:28 PM   #87
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Re: Not real Star Trek

It's all real, even "Genesis" and "Threshold." Some of it's not as good as the rest, and some of it's outstanding. It's just how it is.

Now, analyzing whether a particular series or film is true to the spirit of Star Trek, and indeed what that spirit actually is? Related, but separate, question IMO.
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Old September 16 2013, 06:37 PM   #88
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Praetor: Love your sig line, btw. That's probably my favorite line in all of TNG, and the one that best encapsulates what I personally think of as the "spirit" of STAR TREK . . . .
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Old September 16 2013, 07:14 PM   #89
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Re: Not real Star Trek

I think that a lot of the problem with claiming that something isn't "real" Star Trek is that, for many people, "real" Star Trek actually means "my" Star Trek, or the Star Trek "that I like." Those are NOT the same thing. TOS is not the same as TNG, and DS9 is much different than both. The movies don't have the same tone, themes, etc. There is no one "true" Star Trek.
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Old September 16 2013, 08:02 PM   #90
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
For me 'real' Star Trek:

1. Must adhere to Roddenberry-esque principles. Each episode should have a 'moral' [however light/heavy], the show should be a vessel for a look at the Human Condition & ponderings on ethics, morality and general philosophy. Generally, the show should encourage us to be as good as we can be while growing and learning.

2. It must NOT be simply about action. Violence is the last resort, least preferred method. It must not be overtly sexual or gratuitous.
I don't know. It seems to be that you're coming dangerously close to making "real" STAR TREK sound like spinach, that it's something we should consume because it's Good for Us, and God forbid there should be (gasp!) sex and violence.

*sigh* I will try this one more time. Nowhere did I say that violence or sex should not be part of Trek.

The way I see it, Star Trek movies and episodes (and books) are more than just a delivery mechanism for delivering Positive Social Messages. That's not art, that's propaganda, and about as dramatically interesting as a Sunday school lesson.

I totally disagree. A program with a philosophical tinge that touches on ethics and morality is certainly not propaganda and is certainly more beneficial and interesting than anything religion can come up with.

You seem to be leaving fun, excitement, entertainment, and, yes, sex appeal completely out of the equation.

No, I assumed rational posters would take things like that as a given for what makes good TV. We are discussing what else benefits Trek.

And, honestly, the idea that there was no sex and violence on TOS makes me giggle. Hell, the very first episode featured a green Orion belly dancer and was all about the Talosians trying to get Pike to mate with Vina--and later offering him a selection of females to breed with! And the very first episode to air had the Salt Vampire luring people to their doom by appearing as attractive members of the opposite sex . . . .

Sex and violence have been part of Trek since Day One.
And the last part, again, is laughable. I didn't state at any point that TOS had no sex or violence so...you're just debating with yourself there. All of that was completely pointless to state.
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