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General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

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Old September 15 2013, 08:43 PM   #61
TheGoodStuff
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Bad thoughts wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
I love how many of you are totally overlooking the point. I now have 'Daniel' listing scenes where there was a bit of violence.

I did not say there should be NO violence or titilation, thats absurd. To quote...myself "It must not simply be about..."

Hell, DS9 is my favourite and there are plenty of battles that are epic: however that booms and explosions were not simply the be-all end-all of the show. People died, people were injured and the consequences and ethics of those conflicts were explored.

Sure Voyager had a catsuit, but Jeri Ryan was a fantastic actor and she had numerous fantastic episodes. The sexualisation is forgivable.


Also, im not worshiping Roddenberry, that is also absurd. What I appreciate though is the enlightened humanity, the peaceful future....the themes he installed into the show along with many others.
And there go the goalposts. Note also how you ignore the themes of Into Darkness.
There's a good chance that every anti-war movie will also be a good war movie: it needs to convey something about the experience of war in order to make its point. However, it's still possible to make distinctions between the two genres based on how the violence is presented and contextualized, whether it emphasizes style, action, or futility.

The fact that X number of other episode or films in the franchise have violence does not render them all the same: that moral equivalency doesn't hold. TheGoodStuff has every right to analyze the different films and episodes for how they present violence and use them to advance their narrative. And I think it's perfectly arguable that STID presents a voyeurism with respect to violent death that far exceeds what was shown previously in the franchise.
Thank you for that, very well put.
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Old September 15 2013, 09:03 PM   #62
Robert Comsol
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Re: Not real Star Trek

RandyS wrote: View Post
Ever see a little show called Battlestar Galactica? Not the good 1978 version, I'm talking about Ron Moore's shitfest now.
I find your remark outrageously offensive but I'm at a loss to present evidence to the contrary.

But since you mentioned it, I'd say that the claustrophobic submarine atmosphere and the constant threat of being exterminated and at battle stations is somewhat incompatible with the original heart and soul of Star Trek which was to explore the wonders of space and handle challenges with creativity and imagination but not necessarily with the better charged phaser bank or the better loaded photon torpedo.

Bob
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Old September 15 2013, 09:25 PM   #63
Greg Cox
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Re: Not real Star Trek

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
For me 'real' Star Trek:

1. Must adhere to Roddenberry-esque principles. Each episode should have a 'moral' [however light/heavy], the show should be a vessel for a look at the Human Condition & ponderings on ethics, morality and general philosophy. Generally, the show should encourage us to be as good as we can be while growing and learning.

2. It must NOT be simply about action. Violence is the last resort, least preferred method. It must not be overtly sexual or gratuitous.
I don't know. It seems to be that you're coming dangerously close to making "real" STAR TREK sound like spinach, that it's something we should consume because it's Good for Us, and God forbid there should be (gasp!) sex and violence.

The way I see it, Star Trek movies and episodes (and books) are more than just a delivery mechanism for delivering Positive Social Messages. That's not art, that's propaganda, and about as dramatically interesting as a Sunday school lesson.

You seem to be leaving fun, excitement, entertainment, and, yes, sex appeal completely out of the equation.

And, honestly, the idea that there was no sex and violence on TOS makes me giggle. Hell, the very first episode featured a green Orion belly dancer and was all about the Talosians trying to get Pike to mate with Vina--and later offering him a selection of females to breed with! And the very first episode to air had the Salt Vampire luring people to their doom by appearing as attractive members of the opposite sex . . . .

Sex and violence have been part of Trek since Day One.
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Old September 15 2013, 10:44 PM   #64
Robert Comsol
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
You seem to be leaving fun, excitement, entertainment, and, yes, sex appeal completely out of the equation.
I think there is nothing wrong with the items you mentioned as these can add flavor and else to a good story. That is, that you have a good story to tell and don't just use "Sex sells" and other eye candy trying to hide that you can't or don't tell a good story.

Bob
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Old September 15 2013, 10:53 PM   #65
Greg Cox
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
You seem to be leaving fun, excitement, entertainment, and, yes, sex appeal completely out of the equation.
I think there is nothing wrong with the items you mentioned as these can add flavor and else to a good story. That is, that you have a good story to tell and don't just use "Sex sells" and other eye candy trying to hide that you can't or don't tell a good story.

Bob
Absolutely. But the way some people talk, "real" Trek is first and foremost about promoting some sort of positive message, and all other artistic considerations are secondary to how closely it adheres to some sort of "utopian" party line.

Whether any given production is actually well-written, dramatically compelling, and, yes, entertaining often seems to be seen as irrelevant . . . as though it's the idea of Star Trek that matters, not the storytelling.
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Old September 15 2013, 11:14 PM   #66
teacake
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Opus wrote: View Post
As a kid growing up in the 70s, I would skip The Empath when it came on. For that time and age, it was brutal.

Totally agree. Obviously when I say it was traumatic I'm not talking about now, but for the time and context (show kids watched) it was quite shocking.
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Old September 15 2013, 11:19 PM   #67
Greg Cox
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Re: Not real Star Trek

RandyS wrote: View Post

Ever see a little show called Battlestar Galactica? Not the good 1978 version, I'm talking about Ron Moore's shitfest now. A show that cannot be put down or hated enough.
Gotta stand up for nuBSG. To my mind, it was infinitely more compelling than the old version . . . which never really appealed to me. It's practically the poster child for how to make a remake that is even better than the original. IMHO.
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Old September 15 2013, 11:24 PM   #68
lurok
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Ditto.
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Old September 15 2013, 11:45 PM   #69
JarodRussell
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
RandyS wrote: View Post

Ever see a little show called Battlestar Galactica? Not the good 1978 version, I'm talking about Ron Moore's shitfest now. A show that cannot be put down or hated enough.
Gotta stand up for nuBSG. To my mind, it was infinitely more compelling than the old version . . . which never really appealed to me. It's practically the poster child for how to make a remake that is even better than the original. IMHO.
I never could get into nuBSG because of its "down-to-earth" approach. A show about people NOT from Earth (and as it turned out, 150 thousand years in the past), but then everything was from Earth. English names and alphabet, contemporary props, etc... . Way too weird.
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Old September 16 2013, 12:52 AM   #70
Nerys Myk
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Re: Not real Star Trek

RandyS wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
I love how many of you are totally overlooking the point. I now have 'Daniel' listing scenes where there was a bit of violence.
Hey I was traumatized by The Empath. Don't knock my pain. That stuff was freaking awful.
Please. The Empath was tame compared to the sadistic shit seen on TV today.

Ever see a little show called Battlestar Galactica? Not the good 1978 version, I'm talking about Ron Moore's shitfest now. A show that cannot be put down or hated enough.

The Empath was a lighthearted fantasy compared to that evil garbage.
There was a good version of BSG in 1978 I guess the one I saw was a different show.
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Old September 16 2013, 01:06 AM   #71
Isolinear
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Re: Not real Star Trek

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I never could get into nuBSG because of its "down-to-earth" approach. A show about people NOT from Earth (and as it turned out, 150 thousand years in the past), but then everything was from Earth. English names and alphabet, contemporary props, etc... . Way too weird.
Yeah. At least Star Trek isn't weird right? Almost every species is humanoid with frightingly familiar societies and customs, inter-species babies, every civilization developing Warp Drive roughly at the same time, Earth the center of a vast Federation only 200 years after first contact...

And I agree with Greg Cox, BSG was infinitely better than the old one, and in some ways better than Star Trek.
If you were a kid in the 70's, the old Battlestar was a fine show. But that was back then...
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Old September 16 2013, 01:31 AM   #72
Nerys Myk
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Re: Not real Star Trek

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
I love how many of you are totally overlooking the point. I now have 'Daniel' listing scenes where there was a bit of violence.

I did not say there should be NO violence or titilation, thats absurd. To quote...myself "It must not simply be about..."
Referring to what exactly?
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Old September 16 2013, 02:59 AM   #73
The Wormhole
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Re: Not real Star Trek

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
RandyS wrote: View Post

Ever see a little show called Battlestar Galactica? Not the good 1978 version, I'm talking about Ron Moore's shitfest now. A show that cannot be put down or hated enough.
Gotta stand up for nuBSG. To my mind, it was infinitely more compelling than the old version . . . which never really appealed to me. It's practically the poster child for how to make a remake that is even better than the original. IMHO.
I never could get into nuBSG because of its "down-to-earth" approach. A show about people NOT from Earth (and as it turned out, 150 thousand years in the past), but then everything was from Earth. English names and alphabet, contemporary props, etc... . Way too weird.
That was part of its charm. Sometimes they went overboard with it, like when they started quoting Shakespeare, but otherwise the "down to Earth" approach is one of the more appealing things about nuBSG.
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Old September 16 2013, 04:12 AM   #74
Opus
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Re: Not real Star Trek

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Greg Cox wrote: View Post
RandyS wrote: View Post

Ever see a little show called Battlestar Galactica? Not the good 1978 version, I'm talking about Ron Moore's shitfest now. A show that cannot be put down or hated enough.
Gotta stand up for nuBSG. To my mind, it was infinitely more compelling than the old version . . . which never really appealed to me. It's practically the poster child for how to make a remake that is even better than the original. IMHO.
I never could get into nuBSG because of its "down-to-earth" approach. A show about people NOT from Earth (and as it turned out, 150 thousand years in the past), but then everything was from Earth. English names and alphabet, contemporary props, etc... . Way too weird.

Yeah, but all their papers, photos and books had the corners cut off.

Weird!
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Old September 16 2013, 09:18 AM   #75
Robert Comsol
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Isolinear wrote: View Post
And I agree with Greg Cox, BSG was infinitely better than the old one, and in some ways better than Star Trek.
Now that's a story I need to hear.

Yes, Star Trek was definitely a vision of the future which qualifies as "utopian" and maybe had too much of it.

I vividly remember how I had to overcome my scepticism regarding Babylon 5. Here you had real people with real problems (drug and alcohol abuse) but the core message was get involved, stand up for what you believe is right but be smart and consider the long-lasting consequences of your actions.

However, the nuBSG protagonists had severe problems to reflect on such considerations and - interestingly - seldom had to pay a price for their actions which IMHO is just as naive as the original BSG presentation had been as a whole.

Bob
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