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Old September 14 2013, 07:48 PM   #31
gazomg
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Re: Not real Star Trek

MarsWeeps wrote: View Post
Star Trek was created as a TV series and that's where it belongs. Weekly episodes, each with a "message" or "moral to the story" that gets people to exercise their brains.

The problem with Star Trek these days is that there are only movies that come out every 3-4 years. Because of that, they use the same formula each time. "Evil Villain hell bent on revenge - causes massive death and destruction with lots of explosions!"

Until Star Trek comes back to TV, we are going to have to ignore Gene's vision and tolerate the same movie over and over again.
totally agree with that.

dont help that the recent two movies are in the alternate, and while i accept DS8 was a more darker trek in tied in with the original idea even with arcs as opposed to stand alone episodes with a message.

For me the movies are you say hollywood crash bang wallop type stuff and the last movie a repeat formula of the previous
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Old September 14 2013, 08:44 PM   #32
WillsBabe
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Re: Not real Star Trek

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
If I like it, it's real Star Trek. If I don't like it, it's not real Star Trek.
This is pretty much the criteria I use, too....
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Old September 14 2013, 09:25 PM   #33
Nerys Myk
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Re: Not real Star Trek

gazomg wrote: View Post
MarsWeeps wrote: View Post
Star Trek was created as a TV series and that's where it belongs. Weekly episodes, each with a "message" or "moral to the story" that gets people to exercise their brains.

The problem with Star Trek these days is that there are only movies that come out every 3-4 years. Because of that, they use the same formula each time. "Evil Villain hell bent on revenge - causes massive death and destruction with lots of explosions!"

Until Star Trek comes back to TV, we are going to have to ignore Gene's vision and tolerate the same movie over and over again.
totally agree with that.

dont help that the recent two movies are in the alternate, and while i accept DS8 was a more darker trek in tied in with the original idea even with arcs as opposed to stand alone episodes with a message.

For me the movies are you say hollywood crash bang wallop type stuff and the last movie a repeat formula of the previous
Hollywood repeating a successful formula? That's gotta be a first.
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Old September 14 2013, 10:08 PM   #34
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Until Star Trek comes back to TV, we are going to have to ignore Gene's vision and tolerate the same movie over and over again.
I'm hoping for a Zombie Tribble takeover of the Enterprise. Maybe Spock will yell, "Double dumbass on you," or some other iconic Kirk line.
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Old September 15 2013, 02:40 AM   #35
TheGoodStuff
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Re: Not real Star Trek

For me 'real' Star Trek:

1. Must adhere to Roddenberry-esque principles. Each episode should have a 'moral' [however light/heavy], the show should be a vessel for a look at the Human Condition & ponderings on ethics, morality and general philosophy. Generally, the show should encourage us to be as good as we can be while growing and learning.

2. It must NOT be simply about action. Violence is the last resort, least preferred method. It must not be overtly sexual or gratuitous.

So, for my rules....

TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY & ENT and movies I-X are 'real Star Trek'.

JJ is producing a shallow, soulless version of Trek necromancy in my opinion.
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Old September 15 2013, 03:08 AM   #36
Nerys Myk
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Re: Not real Star Trek

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post

2. It must NOT be simply about action. Violence is the last resort, least preferred method. It must not be overtly sexual or gratuitous.
Have you even seen TOS? The show was about as overtly sexual and gratuitous as you could get away with in the 60s. I think Gene loved to push the censor to the limit. If they said no nipples Gene would suggest they cover the nipples and nothing else. No skirt was ever short enough for Gene.

Violence happened and not always as the last resort. Kirk was more than happy to conduct a campaign of sabotage against the Klingons on Organia. Scotty started a barfight because his ship was insulted.
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Old September 15 2013, 03:24 AM   #37
TheGoodStuff
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post

2. It must NOT be simply about action. Violence is the last resort, least preferred method. It must not be overtly sexual or gratuitous.
Have you even seen TOS? The show was about as overtly sexual and gratuitous as you could get away with in the 60s. I think Gene loved to push the censor to the limit. If they said no nipples Gene would suggest they cover the nipples and nothing else. No skirt was ever short enough for Gene.

Violence happened and not always as the last resort. Kirk was more than happy to conduct a campaign of sabotage against the Klingons on Organia. Scotty started a barfight because his ship was insulted.
Yeah you can rest assured I have seen all of TOS.

I think ENT was far worse than anything TOS did, as you said it did what it could get away with in the '60's [which wasn't much]. I dont see why you think some of the TOS outfits are overtly sexual. Revealing yeah but I think there is a world between them and watching a chick strip down to her underwear...for the sake of it.

A barfight and a sabotage campaign are all intrinsic to plot: there are dozens of TOS episodes where Kirk specifically tries to resolve problems without resorting to violence or atleast shows remorse at the necessity. Its easy to point to two examples and scream 'OMFG VIOENCE!' but centering entire plots around it, simply for the sake of it, is not Star Trek and I do not think TOS really had that problem.
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Old September 15 2013, 03:51 AM   #38
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Re: Not real Star Trek

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post

2. It must NOT be simply about action. Violence is the last resort, least preferred method. It must not be overtly sexual or gratuitous.
Have you even seen TOS? The show was about as overtly sexual and gratuitous as you could get away with in the 60s. I think Gene loved to push the censor to the limit. If they said no nipples Gene would suggest they cover the nipples and nothing else. No skirt was ever short enough for Gene.

Violence happened and not always as the last resort. Kirk was more than happy to conduct a campaign of sabotage against the Klingons on Organia. Scotty started a barfight because his ship was insulted.
Yeah you can rest assured I have seen all of TOS.

I think ENT was far worse than anything TOS did, as you said it did what it could get away with in the '60's [which wasn't much]. I dont see why you think some of the TOS outfits are overtly sexual. Revealing yeah but I think there is a world between them and watching a chick strip down to her underwear...for the sake of it.

A barfight and a sabotage campaign are all intrinsic to plot: there are dozens of TOS episodes where Kirk specifically tries to resolve problems without resorting to violence or atleast shows remorse at the necessity. Its easy to point to two examples and scream 'OMFG VIOENCE!' but centering entire plots around it, simply for the sake of it, is not Star Trek and I do not think TOS really had that problem.
Dude, even back in the day they were calling Trek on the hypocrisy. 1976, the man that was organizing the first conventions at the time calling TOS out on it's hypocrisy. Whole interview is worth a watch, especially once Harlan gets on the stage.

How many time did Kirk put the lives of 430 people above those of millions or billions on the world below.

As for TOS being overtly sexual: Bullshit it wasn't,



Everyone one of those costumes was about tits and ass.
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Old September 15 2013, 03:52 AM   #39
Nerys Myk
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Re: Not real Star Trek

TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
TheGoodStuff wrote: View Post

2. It must NOT be simply about action. Violence is the last resort, least preferred method. It must not be overtly sexual or gratuitous.
Have you even seen TOS? The show was about as overtly sexual and gratuitous as you could get away with in the 60s. I think Gene loved to push the censor to the limit. If they said no nipples Gene would suggest they cover the nipples and nothing else. No skirt was ever short enough for Gene.

Violence happened and not always as the last resort. Kirk was more than happy to conduct a campaign of sabotage against the Klingons on Organia. Scotty started a barfight because his ship was insulted.
Yeah you can rest assured I have seen all of TOS.

I think ENT was far worse than anything TOS did, as you said it did what it could get away with in the '60's [which wasn't much]. I dont see why you think some of the TOS outfits are overtly sexual. Revealing yeah but I think there is a world between them and watching a chick strip down to her underwear...for the sake of it.

A barfight and a sabotage campaign are all intrinsic to plot: there are dozens of TOS episodes where Kirk specifically tries to resolve problems without resorting to violence or atleast shows remorse at the necessity. Its easy to point to two examples and scream 'OMFG VIOENCE!' but centering entire plots around it, simply for the sake of it, is not Star Trek and I do not think TOS really had that problem.
Of course those costumes were overtly sexual. That was the point of making them revealing. To tease and titillate. To show as much flesh as possible. He wasn't making the show for the local Convent.

If Gene thought he could get way with a chick stripping down to her underwear in TOS, he would have done it. As it was he did have Yeoman Barrows change from a torn uniform to a princess costume. I think McCoy might have sneaked a peak. In TMP the Ilia probe appears on the Enterprise nude in a sonic shower. (Which Kirk observes) She exits and instead of changing into something practical, dons the shortest robe possible and continues to wear it till the end of the film.

My point is TOS had fight scenes because the show was an action adventure show. It was part of the genre. Kirk showing regret or remorse doesn't change that. The films are no different. The violence in them is just as "intrinsic".
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Old September 15 2013, 05:09 AM   #40
-Brett-
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Re: Not real Star Trek

Well, with Enterprise I think you could make a legitimate argument that it's not Star Trek. For it's first two or three years it literally wasn't.
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Old September 15 2013, 05:40 AM   #41
OBXTrekkie
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Re: Not real Star Trek

IMO, whatever series/movies/episodes stir that "This is why I love Star Trek" emotion in me, are real Trek for me. The rest is just the rest.
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Old September 15 2013, 06:57 AM   #42
CommishSleer
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Re: Not real Star Trek

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
As for TOS being overtly sexual: Bullshit it wasn't,



Everyone one of those costumes was about tits and ass.
Its not just TOS, I was watching TNG yesterday and didn't realise how many times the camera just zoomed on Troi's breasts. I never really noticed it before.

I remember that episode where Wesley was sentenced to death where everyone was minimally clad.

And there was 7of9 and T'Pol's and Kira's one piece suits.

And there was T'Pol stripping off for 'therapy massages'. OK and the decontamination episodes of ENT.
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Old September 15 2013, 07:09 AM   #43
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Re: Not real Star Trek

All of it is Real Star Trek. I'll revisit what I like the most (TNG, DS9, VOY, the first 9 movies) more than what I don't like. This whole thing of Real vs. Fake comes across as a waste of time argument.
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Old September 15 2013, 07:22 AM   #44
Silvercrest
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Re: Not real Star Trek

BillJ wrote: View Post
Only The Cage and Threshold are real Star Trek.
Only Threshold. The Cage was just a ripoff of Forbidden Planet.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
As it was he did have Yeoman Barrows change from a torn uniform to a princess costume. I think McCoy might have sneaked a peak.
Now, now ... when he peeks, it's in the line of duty.


Supposedly.
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Old September 15 2013, 07:26 AM   #45
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Not real Star Trek

For my own personal canon, I accept all the series (including TAS, but excluding "These Are The Voyages", that was just a bad dream I had) and TOS/TNG films--most of which I can live with (bad science and all) except of course for TATV (though Nemesis is a bit iffy).

For me the NuTrek films aren't part of my canon, since its an alternate timeline/universe. Even the events such as the destruction of Romulus and the disappearance of Spock occurred in another alternate universe so NuTrek is therefore an alternate-alternate universe. In my canon, Romulus is whole and working on better relations with the UFP, thanks to the work Spock continues to do towards reunification.

The novelverse also doesn't count within my canon, except for the Andorian sexes and the slow extinction of their species.
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