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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old November 21 2013, 06:18 AM   #91
LMFAOschwarz
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Melakon wrote: View Post
I always thought the most glaring mistake Janice was making was how she always referred to herself as captain. It was always "Captain Kirk here," "Captain Kirk out," which most of them, especially Spock and McCoy, should have picked up. Kirk himself usually dropped the rank title.
I guess she was flaunting the ability to finally being able to do so.

I wonder why she was so determined to be a Captain? Considering her general state of mind, that's a rather alarming notion!
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Old November 21 2013, 06:20 AM   #92
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

If she had managed to pull it off I could see her as another Garth of Izar waiting to happen.
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Old November 21 2013, 06:23 AM   #93
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

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If she had managed to pull it off I could see her as another Garth of Izar waiting to happen.
"That's LORD Garth!!"
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Old November 21 2013, 06:25 AM   #94
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
If she had managed to pull it off I could see her as another Garth of Izar waiting to happen.
"That's LORD Garth!!"
There ya go.
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Old November 21 2013, 06:28 AM   #95
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

I don't recall if any of the novels had a TOS era female starship Captain. I know I had one in one of my TOS fanfic stories. Does anyone know if there's been one in one of the TOS fan film productions?
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Old November 21 2013, 06:28 AM   #96
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

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Oh I think the intention was that there really were no female captains at that time, and there was probably an offical regulation about it. The issue is how well we can wiggle around to distort the intention of the episode because of how sexist and awful it is. It really tarnishes the optimistic future where Earth has overcome prejudice.
Well, Star Trek would seem to be contradictory on this. Number One in the the Cage/Menagerie is XO of the Enterprise. You don't become an XO, if you can't become a CO.
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Old November 21 2013, 06:34 AM   #97
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Okay, I know this is really, really reaching...but what if Starfleet did have some sort of a temporary "moratorium" on the idea of female starship captains? What if the Federation was in some sort of sensitive negotiations with some planet who scorned the idea of female captains/authority figures, and they were bending over backwards to accommodate them during this time? That sort of thing is not beyond Starfleet thinking, based on what I remember.

I find Star Trek a lot more fun when trying to justify why things work, as opposed to why they don't. Keeps my inner cynic caged, too!
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Old November 21 2013, 06:38 AM   #98
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

^Sounds more like Picard's Starfleet than Kirk's.
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Old November 21 2013, 06:41 AM   #99
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
^Sounds more like Picard's Starfleet than Kirk's.
Mmm, that's a good point!
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Old November 21 2013, 07:41 AM   #100
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
Okay, I know this is really, really reaching...but what if Starfleet did have some sort of a temporary "moratorium" on the idea of female starship captains? What if the Federation was in some sort of sensitive negotiations with some planet who scorned the idea of female captains/authority figures, and they were bending over backwards to accommodate them during this time?
Alternatively, perhaps there had been an experimental program with a ship comparable to the Enterprise commanded by a woman, and it had gone missing in an unknown or hostile situation. Starfleet might have temporarily postponed adding more women in command, under the theory that space was too dangerous to risk the program any further pending investigation.

I'm probably using some 1960's thinking here, as there were few women airline pilots or sea captains at the time, and those that did exist didn't get a lot of press. Women weren't deployed into combat situations at the time.
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Old November 21 2013, 08:40 AM   #101
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
I don't recall if any of the novels had a TOS era female starship Captain. I know I had one in one of my TOS fanfic stories. Does anyone know if there's been one in one of the TOS fan film productions?
"The Entropy Effect" had a female Captain. I'm not certain about the definition of a Starship though.
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Old November 21 2013, 11:17 AM   #102
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Warped9 wrote: View Post

It would have been nice if TOS had simply shown us (or referred to) a woman of command rank. Imagine if one of the Starfleet Admirals seen on the viewscreen or one of the starbase Commodores had been cast as a woman.
This still would not have indicated that there were female starship captains, today you can obtain the rank of admiral in the US Navy without ever having commanded a ship.

The only way to have clearly shown that females could be starship captains is to have shown exactly that, if you also include not showing them in a negative light in the least, where you would substitute a female for a existing TOS era male (who definitely commanded a starship) is a short list.

We really didn't see that many male starship captains who weren't in some way "imperfect."


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Old November 21 2013, 02:08 PM   #103
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

borgboy wrote: View Post
Oh I think the intention was that there really were no female captains at that time, and there was probably an offical regulation about it. The issue is how well we can wiggle around to distort the intention of the episode because of how sexist and awful it is. It really tarnishes the optimistic future where Earth has overcome prejudice.
It was the intention of that specific script. That does not make it the intention of the entire series. Sometimes an isolated episode will get something wrong, like the way "The Alternative Factor" contradicted what had already been established about how antimatter and dilithium worked. It is okay to ignore one episode's intention if the rest of the series clearly disregards it. Just call it a mistake and move on. You don't have to be a slave to authorial intention. The audience is allowed, indeed expected, to bring their own interpretations to a work of fiction, even when those interpretations conflict with what the author intended.


Warped9 wrote: View Post
There's a lot to criticize about this episode, but it has to be said that Shatner's performance sold this idea. His performance as Kirk inhabited by Lester was equal mix of WTF! and brilliant nuance. Equally Sandra Smith was pretty good as Lester inhabited by Kirk.
Wow, I couldn't disagree more. Shatner was just playing a generic "hysterical female," a characterization just as sexist and ill-considered as the rest of the episode, while Smith was just playing a generic strong authority figure. Usually when shows do body-switch episodes, the actors do impressions of each other's speech rhythms and mannerisms; often they'll do recordings of how they would deliver the lines so that their body-switch counterparts can study and emulate their performances. But Shatner and Smith made zero attempt to mimic each other in any way, which is bizarre given how highly imitable Shatner's performance style is. It's the worst body-switch acting I've ever seen in my life.


Warped9 wrote: View Post
I don't recall if any of the novels had a TOS era female starship Captain.
The Vanguard novels have at least two female starship captains, plus a female JAG captain. As stated, The Entropy Effect had Captain Hunter. Vulcan's Forge establishes that a female Starfleet captain sponsored Spock's admission to Starfleet Academy in 2247. My DTI: Forgotten History features a Makusian female captain in 2274. Diane Duane's My Enemy, My Ally had the female Denebian captain Nhauris Rihaul.

There were a couple of female captains in the TMP-era comic strip from the LA Times Syndicate. IDW's Captain's Log: Pike comic establishes that Yeoman Colt had become a captain by 2266, and their Mission's End has a captain Elizabeth Cassady in 2265.

And those are just some examples. Female captains are far from uncommon in Trek novels, comics, and games set in any century, because nobody has wanted or bothered to take "Turnabout Intruder"'s bad ideas seriously.
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Old November 21 2013, 02:58 PM   #104
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

^^ Christopher, Lester was a hysterical female. She started losing it right from the get-go particularly whenever she was challenged or something do exactly her way. She had deluded herself into believing no one would notice anything amiss in her impersonation, but she was dead wrong. If she had managed to kill Kirk/Lester before the rest of the landing party had returned she might have continued awhile longer, but eventually her own instability would have come out in some other way.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post

It would have been nice if TOS had simply shown us (or referred to) a woman of command rank. Imagine if one of the Starfleet Admirals seen on the viewscreen or one of the starbase Commodores had been cast as a woman.
This still would not have indicated that there were female starship captains, today you can obtain the rank of admiral in the US Navy without ever having commanded a ship.

The only way to have clearly shown that females could be starship captains is to have shown exactly that, if you also include not showing them in a negative light in the least, where you would substitute a female for a existing TOS era male (who definitely commanded a starship) is a short list.

We really didn't see that many male starship captains who weren't in some way "imperfect."


It's a matter of context. If TOS had shown a woman of command rank I doubt audiences of the '60s would have seen it in such a technical way. A female Starfleet Admiral? Wow!

Also imagine Commodore Stone's words (changing one word) as spoken by a woman: "Listen, Jim. Not one in a million can do what you and I have done: command a starship."

Right there you haven't actually shown her commanding a ship, but you've established that women can command ships and they can rise to flag rank.

In "Turnabout Intruder" it never specifically and definitively says a woman can't be a starship Captain. It does say Lester couldn't be one because of temperament or training. But that's her flawed temperament and lack of training and not women's in general. And being a resentful and irrational individual she took this failure as blanket sexism mixed in with her bitterness over Kirk choosing his career over her.

I think it's clear her irrationality isn't new. I could easily see her as a clingy nut job way back when Kirk first met her. After the initial interest on both sides her not-so-nice qualities would have surfaced and Kirk would have bolted. He was a dedicated career man and felt he couldn't allow himself to be tied down into a long term relationship. When you're a couple your career decisions have to consider two people instead of just one. Kirk could well feel that ultimately that necessity for compromise would be hurtful to one or the other. What assignments or opportunities might he have had to let pass by if he had to factor in what his lover/wife/girlfriend might feel about it or if it conflicted with her ambitions? Kirk has long wanted to be a starship commander and he felt he couldn't make long term relationship commitments that could potentially derail his ambitions. It's not a new or unknown thing. It happens all the time.
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Old November 21 2013, 06:30 PM   #105
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
People always talk about the female starship captain stuff when this episode comes up. That I can dust aside pretty easily, writing it off as a nutty characters' perceptions. What bothers me more is the fact that Laster-as-Kirk seems to know all the crew's names. Instead of ""Mr. Sulu, do this" and "Mr. Chekov do that", I'd have preferred for her to have referred to them as "Helmsman" and "Navigator" until the point someone else referred to them by name.
de Forest Research often pointed out when characters knew names before they should, but for this episode they must have assumed Lester had been planning this for some time, since the only thing on this topic they pointed out was the following:

Bones – Janice has not heard this nickname. Suggest include it in teaser so she can pick it up.
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