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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old November 24 2013, 12:49 AM   #211
borgboy
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

I'd love to see the man in the gold minidress if anybody has the pic.
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Old November 24 2013, 01:51 AM   #212
T'Girl
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
The shade of red she is wearing is even nicer but, of course, that might be a trick of the light due to the differnt fabric.
From the shadow on the record officers chair, the principal lighting would seem to be behind Shaw. Also, if the costume she is wearing was special made just for this episode, it might not be faded from repeated washings.


borgboy wrote: View Post
I'd love to see the man in the gold minidress if anybody has the pic.
That should be the title of the next movie.

Star Trek Thirteen: The Man in the Gold Minidress.


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Old November 24 2013, 02:20 AM   #213
borgboy
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

I'd see that movie
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Old November 24 2013, 04:31 AM   #214
Irishman
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Noddy wrote: View Post
This is certainly what is strongly implied in "Turnabout Intruder", via Dr. Janice Lester's dialogue. But since we now know that there were female commanding officers in Starfleet well before this time, as well as after, how we reevaluate what this episode states?
The way I've come to look at this line of dialogue is this:

In Kirk's time, there were no female Starship captains, for whatever reasons. Since humans on Earth had had gender equality (at least on paper) for a long time, I conclude that Starfleet had had female captains in the past - possibly for most of its history - probably close to parity with the men captains. This disparity mentioned by Janice "Loco" Lester could be blown out of proportion due to her questionable mental state. But look at the thought process that could have led her to where she was:

SF has had female captains in the past (and would again later with Janeway, etc) and Lester could have very well gone through SF Academy believing full-well that she stood a shot at getting her own command when she was done. When her review or whatever came up and she was denied command, she interpreted it as gender bias in SF. She never once thought it was because she was a nutjob (although we see by the time of the ep that she was).

Which leads my mind to another question - Why didn't SF have her treated? They must have spotted the signs of her condition early. How far ahead of Lester was Kirk? 1 year? 5? She very well could have gone through a deteriorating mental state for 10-15 years since the Academy! Out of SF, probably.
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Old November 24 2013, 04:45 AM   #215
Warped9
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Borgboy, you don't have any solid basis for that notion. For all we know Number One from "The Cage" could well be commanding her own ship (or beyond) by the time of TOS. And how do we know Lester wasn't in sciences back at the Academy. It has been amply pointed out that what we saw onscreen was but a very small percentage of Starfleet personnel and can't really be taken as a large enough sample. Absence of evidence isn't evidence particularly when the circumstantial evidence to the contrary is stronger.
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Old November 24 2013, 05:12 AM   #216
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

That is a good point about Lester not getting treatment, though. "Whom Gods Destroy" alleged that mental illness had been all but wiped out in the Federation aside from the few incurable cases at Elba II. Having an insane human villain just eight episodes later is a continuity glitch I never thought about before.
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Old November 24 2013, 05:54 AM   #217
Warped9
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Her condition might not have been so obvious back when she knew Kirk previously. If she did try for a command path her temperament and erratic behaviour mightn't have been enough to raise any flags back then, but enough to show she wasn't suitable for command. After that her resentment, bitterness and neurosis festered and grew. She might have internalized a lot of it so it mightn't have been obvious to all but those who knew her better. She might still have been able to function at least on the face of it. But it was enough to drive Kirk away as well as keep her out of any Starfleet paths she might have wanted.

But she evidently had a victim mentality where her faulures were always somehow someone else's fault.
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Last edited by Warped9; November 24 2013 at 06:04 AM.
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Old November 24 2013, 05:55 AM   #218
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

There's also Lester's boy-toy Dr. Coleman to consider. Maybe he used his connections to shield Lester from any treatment that she didn't want. Or perhaps she did get treatment, and it just didn't work on her.

Then again: Before Lester swapped with Kirk, had she been convicted of any crimes at that point? Obviously she killed the rest of her team, but nobody knew about it at that point. She can't get treatment for a crime that the Federation doesn't even know about, let alone actually convict her for.
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Old November 24 2013, 06:03 AM   #219
J.T.B.
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
Because of the gold piping, I always assumed that was the female dress uniform, especially since all the other court officers were wearing dress uniforms too.
Yes, the gold piping and the satiny material, similar to the men's jackets, point toward it being a dress uniform. It has standard rank stripes, though, unlike the male dress uniforms.
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Old November 24 2013, 07:36 AM   #220
Avro Arrow
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
Yes, the gold piping and the satiny material, similar to the men's jackets, point toward it being a dress uniform. It has standard rank stripes, though, unlike the male dress uniforms.
True, but the various piping schemes on the male dress uniforms do seem to indicate rank, at least for ranks higher than lieutenant commander*. Perhaps there was nowhere to put extra piping on the female uniforms, so SF decided just to put the standard stripes on them. It's hard to tell, since we only ever saw that uniform once, AFAIK, and it was worn by a lieutenant.

* Commander, Captain and Commodore all had distinct schemes. I'm trying to recall if the court reporter in Court Martial was identified as an ensign, but I'm drawing a blank. I believe he was wearing the same piping scheme as Scotty and McCoy do, so if he *is* an ensign, that would seem to point to the piping scheme being the same for lieutenant commander and below. If he's never referred to by rank, then maybe we can just assume he's a lieutenant commander...
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Old November 24 2013, 07:49 AM   #221
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

This is one of those instances where, just because we didn't see it on screen doesn't mean that it isn't so. Barring the eccentricities and remarks of a few characters, women by the 23rd century were doing exactly the same things men were (maybe even a little more as, other than one instance in the 22nd century, human men still weren't getting pregnant).

Starfleet of the time had dozens of stations and hundreds of ships and we only got to see the CO's of just a handful. There may not have been any prominent women Captain's of a Constitution-Class but that would be by chance rather than design.

In my mind at least, Number One was promoted to Captain after serving Pike for two tours, but instead of being given the Enterprise, she was instead offered a much larger deep-range explorer (based on the designs for upgraded Enterprise "Planet of the Titans") which would see her go further out into uncharted space than any other starship Captain. So whilst Kirk is fighting Klingons and teaching alien women to love, she is seeing things no other Starfleeter has, establishing peaceful relations with new and unusual species, and keeping the Federation safe from threats it could never have imagined. But as I said, that's just how I envision things.
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Old November 24 2013, 07:55 AM   #222
Avro Arrow
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

^ Can't remember if this was mentioned upthread or not. Non-canon, of course, but John Byrne had her in command of the Yorktown in at least one of his IDW comic miniseries.
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Old November 24 2013, 08:43 AM   #223
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Christopher wrote: View Post
borgboy wrote: View Post
It is neat to see a few women in the first season in the trouser uniform. It is a little hard to take some of the women seriously when you can basicly see their underwear.
Is a person's intelligence and competence diminished when more of their skin is showing? Taking a person seriously should be based on what's inside them, not how much is covering them.
Go to peopleofwalmart.com and tell me what matters is what's inside them.
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Old November 24 2013, 09:53 PM   #224
J.T.B.
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
True, but the various piping schemes on the male dress uniforms do seem to indicate rank, at least for ranks higher than lieutenant commander*. Perhaps there was nowhere to put extra piping on the female uniforms, so SF decided just to put the standard stripes on them. It's hard to tell, since we only ever saw that uniform once, AFAIK, and it was worn by a lieutenant.

* Commander, Captain and Commodore all had distinct schemes. I'm trying to recall if the court reporter in Court Martial was identified as an ensign, but I'm drawing a blank. I believe he was wearing the same piping scheme as Scotty and McCoy do, so if he *is* an ensign, that would seem to point to the piping scheme being the same for lieutenant commander and below. If he's never referred to by rank, then maybe we can just assume he's a lieutenant commander...
The court officer was never spoken to/of, so nothing definite on his rank. He does have the same uniform trim as Scott and McCoy, so lieutenant commander seems like a good fit. He wears a starbase badge instead of "ribbons," though. Another inconsistency is that Como. Mendez wears the same trim as Kirk.

A while back I took a shot at a (male) dress uniform scheme that filled in the blanks for lieutenant and below. I don't have any idea where to take it for admirals. It does seem odd, though, to have one dress uniform ranks system for males and a different one for females.

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Old November 24 2013, 10:53 PM   #225
Avro Arrow
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Re: No female starship captains in the 2250s-60s?

^ Nice work! The asymmetrical lieutenant j.g. seems a little odd, though. Maybe a viable alternative would be to have lieutenant retain the front piping from lieutenant commander but drop the collar piping, then have lieutenant j.g. have just the collar piping and not the front piping.

You're right, admiral is kinda tricky. Maybe you could have the piping that runs from collar to armpit be the wide piping. But I'm really not sure how you would differentiate the four different admiral grades.

Good catch on Mendez... I never clued into that. I'm guessing the real-world explanation is that they only did a commodore version in red, so when they needed another gold one, they just gave Throne one of the two gold captain's uniforms they had created for Court Martial?
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