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Old May 29 2013, 07:28 AM   #1
Immolatus
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TOS question?

Did the cylons in TOS want to just destroy the 12 colonies or all humanity in general?
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Old May 29 2013, 09:20 AM   #2
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Re: TOS question?

They wanted to extermionate all humans. I can't remember the exact line ut the Imperius Leader said something like

"So long as one human lives the alliance is threatened."
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Old May 29 2013, 01:06 PM   #3
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Re: TOS question?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
They wanted to extermionate all humans. I can't remember the exact line ut the Imperius Leader said something like

"So long as one human lives the alliance is threatened."
From what I remember, that line was said when the Imperious Leader orders Baltar's execution. At the end of the pilot, after that particular Leader had been destroyed, and a new one was in place, we are told the Cylons are taking a different tactic, and Baltar is to find the fleet and deliver a message of peace.

But the Cylons just keep on trying to kill them.
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Old May 29 2013, 06:53 PM   #4
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Re: TOS question?

I always took the 2nd Imperius Leader's peace proposal to be actually genuine, the Colonials were no longer a threat.

This plan was scuppered when Lucifer assumed the Colonials didn't want peace, so launched the attack on Kobol, and the Imperius Leader went with a "I offered an olive branch, they refused it, so kill them".

If the Cylons did really want to wipe out humanity rather than just the Colonials, then there's a lot of planets the rag-tag fleet left in their wake that were pretty helpless when the Cylons who were trailing them turned up.
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Old May 29 2013, 06:57 PM   #5
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Re: TOS question?

solariabsg25 wrote: View Post
I always took the 2nd Imperius Leader's peace proposal to be actually genuine, the Colonials were no longer a threat.

This plan was scuppered when Lucifer assumed the Colonials didn't want peace, so launched the attack on Kobol, and the Imperius Leader went with a "I offered an olive branch, they refused it, so kill them".

If the Cylons did really want to wipe out humanity rather than just the Colonials, then there's a lot of planets the rag-tag fleet left in their wake that were pretty helpless when the Cylons who were trailing them turned up.
And since we never saw those planets again, I always imagined the Cylons cleansed them when they came upon them.

I always felt sorry for the planet Terra. Starbuck and Apollo had just saved them from obliterating themselves, and I imagine the Cylons happened upon them some time later and finished the job.

The Colonials thought they were out of Cylon space at that time, but later they did run across a base star, so probably not.
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Old May 30 2013, 05:20 AM   #6
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Re: TOS question?

Vendikarr wrote: View Post
solariabsg25 wrote: View Post
I always took the 2nd Imperius Leader's peace proposal to be actually genuine, the Colonials were no longer a threat.

This plan was scuppered when Lucifer assumed the Colonials didn't want peace, so launched the attack on Kobol, and the Imperius Leader went with a "I offered an olive branch, they refused it, so kill them".

If the Cylons did really want to wipe out humanity rather than just the Colonials, then there's a lot of planets the rag-tag fleet left in their wake that were pretty helpless when the Cylons who were trailing them turned up.
And since we never saw those planets again, I always imagined the Cylons cleansed them when they came upon them.

I always felt sorry for the planet Terra. Starbuck and Apollo had just saved them from obliterating themselves, and I imagine the Cylons happened upon them some time later and finished the job.

The Colonials thought they were out of Cylon space at that time, but later they did run across a base star, so probably not.
I wasn't sure. they left a whole lot of planets with humans on them behind. I can't see Adama leaving them to be wiped out.
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Old May 30 2013, 01:56 PM   #7
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Re: TOS question?

Immolatus wrote: View Post
Vendikarr wrote: View Post
solariabsg25 wrote: View Post
I always took the 2nd Imperius Leader's peace proposal to be actually genuine, the Colonials were no longer a threat.

This plan was scuppered when Lucifer assumed the Colonials didn't want peace, so launched the attack on Kobol, and the Imperius Leader went with a "I offered an olive branch, they refused it, so kill them".

If the Cylons did really want to wipe out humanity rather than just the Colonials, then there's a lot of planets the rag-tag fleet left in their wake that were pretty helpless when the Cylons who were trailing them turned up.
And since we never saw those planets again, I always imagined the Cylons cleansed them when they came upon them.

I always felt sorry for the planet Terra. Starbuck and Apollo had just saved them from obliterating themselves, and I imagine the Cylons happened upon them some time later and finished the job.

The Colonials thought they were out of Cylon space at that time, but later they did run across a base star, so probably not.
I wasn't sure. they left a whole lot of planets with humans on them behind. I can't see Adama leaving them to be wiped out.
There was the western town where they left the alien as sheriff; the clones on their way to becoming a functional human settlement on Ice Planet Zero, the family on the swampy world Specter and his garrison evacuated (there could be more humans there, otherwise why stay?), Apollo was temporarily marooned on a world with a woman and her child.

And Terra and it's inhabited moons. I think the only time they took people with them is when they evacuated the prison colony.
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Old May 30 2013, 09:35 PM   #8
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Re: TOS question?

Immolatus wrote: View Post
Did the cylons in TOS want to just destroy the 12 colonies or all humanity in general?
IIRC, this is the basic gist of the Cylon mindset, based on in-show dialog, TOS shooting scripts and novelizations and what was intended to be, but never was in unshot scripts, some of which was used in Richard Hatch's books.

The Cylons were an extremely warlike race of intelligent lizard creatures. Somewhere along the line, they became advanced enough to start dabbling in cybernetic enhancements. Their interest culminated in the creation of fully mechanized automatons that eventually killed their creators (much like what was demonstrated in NuBSG, but with the humans instead). The introduction of this technology was said to have been given to them by a "Fallen Angel"-type character by the name of Count Iblis. Popular human myth would put him on the level of Satan. The actor who played Iblis, Patrick Macnee, also voiced the Cylon Imperious Leader. Baltar noticed this when they were both together - Iblis said something to the effect of "in order for my voice to be imprinted on Cylon Leader, I would have to be over a thousand yahrens old". Basically, yeah, he was there. The Cylons essentially sold their collective souls to the devil in exchange for advanced cybernetic technology. Low-level Cylons are said to have one brain. Higher-level IL Cylons like Lucifer and Spectre were supposed to have two brains, to give them that extra spark of sentience that the lower-level Centurions did not have. Only Imperious Leader is imbued with the "third brain", which ties him into the overall Cylon Collective and gives him that eternal tether to Iblis, his "god".

So...a thousand years (yahrens) prior to the events in TOS, the Colonies had peaceful relations with other species in their section of the galaxy, including the Hsari and Delphian Empire. Once the Cylons wiped out the last vestiges of their organic masters, they set out to conquer ALL organic life, not just humans. In fact, the Colonies were not their first target. IIRC, the Hsaris were the first to fall. This led to the Colonial declaration of war against the Cylons. During the course of the war, and unbeknownst to the Colonials, the Delphian Empire fell, who's capital world of Gamoray was occupied by the Cylons as their new outer capital (as discovered in "Living Legend"), effectively surrounding the Colonies, leaving them open as the Cylons' final target.

At a higher level, the humans were being watched by the Beings of Light, what Adama referred to as "Custodians of the Universe", ascended beings who felt that humanity had great potential of ascending to a similar plane of higher existence. Iblis did not want this, and used the Cylons to destroy the humans, effectively scuttling the Beings of Light's plans.

This is what I always loved about TOS, the greater Chess Game going on at different levels. This was implied in NuBSG, but was never fleshed out and left to interpretation what God's plan really was, who the "head" people and Starbuck were, etc. TOS was unapologetic about its plot and goals and there was a clear vision where it was going to go.

So, I think that's about it in a nutshell. Hope this clears things up. Let me know if you have any other questions - I'm quite fond of this particular subject, in case you couldn't tell.
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Old May 30 2013, 11:04 PM   #9
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Re: TOS question?

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
TOS was unapologetic about its plot and goals and there was a clear vision where it was going to go.
Hardly -- they were making things up as they went, trying and abandoning various things, and falling prey to network interference. They started out trying to tell a story about refugees from a destroyed civilization struggling to survive, but by the second storyline the characters were more concerned with throwing parties than anything else, and when the male pilots got sick, it wasn't because of lack of resources or overcrowding or overwhelming grief or the other consequences of the cataclysm, but just because they were too lazy to go through decontamination. It's like they'd forgotten the whole apocalyptic premise of the show, or been ordered by the network to downplay it. Then they spent a while flailing to figure out what kind of stories to tell, giving us a couple of faux-Westerns and a faux-Middle Ages story rather than anything really science-fictional -- and creating the paradox that inspired this thread by mostly ignoring the idea of the Colonials being the last human survivors and giving us a bunch of random planet-of-the-week human colonies. This was a show that spent much of the first half of its season telling stories that worked against its original vision, probably because the network resisted letting it be the show it was supposed to be.

Eventually they started to get some focus, but then the network pressured them to leave the Cylons behind and introduce new bad guys, leading to the Terra arc, the Borellians, and the like. Not to mention the shifting character focus, particularly with the women: being forced to change Cassiopeia from a "socialator" to a nurse, introducing Sheba as a tough fighter jock and then promptly reducing her to a simpering love interest, and abandoning Athena as a character altogether after failing to find a place for her.

This isn't a show that had a clear and solid vision of its direction from the get-go, but one that spent the whole season trying to figure out its direction, with the effort complicated by network meddling. Given all that, it's impressive that it managed to build its world and storyline with as much coherence as it did.
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Old May 31 2013, 12:03 AM   #10
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Re: TOS question?

The problem with the first half of the season is Glenn Larson and his staff had originally planned for a number of two hour movies set in this universe, but ABC would only pick it up as a series. So while the two part episodes (which were the scripts for the movies) were pretty solid, the other stand alone episodes had to be crafted fairly quickly. Those episodes were very substandard. It took them half a season to actually have themselves in the position to tell decent stories in the circumstance they found themselves in.

This series is a textbook example of network mismanagement. And despite that, it was a top 40 show in the Nielsen ratings. Given its expense it would have needed to be a top 10 show.
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Old May 31 2013, 12:06 AM   #11
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Re: TOS question?

^That would explain a lot. I feel the series flows much better if you just skip those first four one-parters, and now I know why.
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Old May 31 2013, 02:29 PM   #12
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Re: TOS question?

Christopher wrote: View Post
137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
TOS was unapologetic about its plot and goals and there was a clear vision where it was going to go.
Hardly -- they were making things up as they went, trying and abandoning various things, and falling prey to network interference. They started out trying to tell a story about refugees from a destroyed civilization struggling to survive, but by the second storyline the characters were more concerned with throwing parties than anything else, and when the male pilots got sick, it wasn't because of lack of resources or overcrowding or overwhelming grief or the other consequences of the cataclysm, but just because they were too lazy to go through decontamination. It's like they'd forgotten the whole apocalyptic premise of the show, or been ordered by the network to downplay it. Then they spent a while flailing to figure out what kind of stories to tell, giving us a couple of faux-Westerns and a faux-Middle Ages story rather than anything really science-fictional -- and creating the paradox that inspired this thread by mostly ignoring the idea of the Colonials being the last human survivors and giving us a bunch of random planet-of-the-week human colonies. This was a show that spent much of the first half of its season telling stories that worked against its original vision, probably because the network resisted letting it be the show it was supposed to be.

Eventually they started to get some focus, but then the network pressured them to leave the Cylons behind and introduce new bad guys, leading to the Terra arc, the Borellians, and the like. Not to mention the shifting character focus, particularly with the women: being forced to change Cassiopeia from a "socialator" to a nurse, introducing Sheba as a tough fighter jock and then promptly reducing her to a simpering love interest, and abandoning Athena as a character altogether after failing to find a place for her.

This isn't a show that had a clear and solid vision of its direction from the get-go, but one that spent the whole season trying to figure out its direction, with the effort complicated by network meddling. Given all that, it's impressive that it managed to build its world and storyline with as much coherence as it did.
I agree with most everything you said here - except - you need to remember that Glen Larson is a Mormon and many doctrines of the Mormon faith were deeply embedded in the TOS mythology. The Quorum of the Twelve, Kobol being an anagram of Kolob (the home world of God), the sealing ceremony between Apollo and Serena, the Beings of Light and the belief that, through spiritual study and introspection, humanity may one day ascend to a higher level of being to become closer to God. All these concepts were carefully woven into the tapestry of the show since he started writing his first treatment of "Adam's Ark" back in the 60's and, regardless of network meddling, was still at the very core of his idea and literally never changed up through the very last episode (G1980: The Return of Starbuck).

BSG is, in fact, Mormons In Space, driven out of their homeland in the east (the Colonies of Cyrannus) by those who hated their way of life (Cylons) and traveling west towards their promised land (Earth), just like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Ever notice how the Rag Tag Fleet always traveled from the right side of the screen to the left side when pretty much all other science fiction shows of that time had their ships going from left to right? That's why...they were traveling to their new home towards the metaphorical "west" - Earth was their Salt Lake City, Utah - the symbolism was there all along for those who could see it. Those not familiar with Mormonism have otherwise believed it was a closer analog to the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt with Adama playing the role of Moses, and I could see where that could be tangentially the case, but that was clearly not the primary intent, particularly taking into account all the other Mormon references deep within the show's engine. Adama's name is the clue to that, being associated with Adam, the first man. Popular in the 1970's, there was the van Daniken concept of "Ancient Aliens" coming to a prehistoric Earth to influence its development. This was also heavily included in TOS, with the references to Atlantis and Lemuria in the opening credits and the Egyptian symbolism and general art design throughout the entire show, tying the whole mythology together. NuBSG sort of went this route, but opted for a more Greco-Roman influence, rather than Egyptian. In TOS, however, the concept was always there and a clear part of its vision from start to finish.

Yes, the Universal suits sadly wreaked havoc with the low-level operations of the series and were largely responsible for its failure, but the core intent always remained intact - unlike RDM's version where he basically admitted there was never any real "plan" (much to my frustration - I really liked the new show and had hoped there was more to it than the random "wouldn't it be kewl if we did this" writing style that was apparently encouraged in the NuBSG writer's room). TOS was simply sidelined on a fairly consistent basis, to catastrophic results, by the ignorant purse-holders who either couldn't or wouldn't understand what Larson was doing.
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Old May 31 2013, 09:48 PM   #13
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Re: TOS question?

Vendikarr wrote: View Post
MacLeod wrote: View Post
They wanted to extermionate all humans. I can't remember the exact line ut the Imperius Leader said something like

"So long as one human lives the alliance is threatened."
From what I remember, that line was said when the Imperious Leader orders Baltar's execution. At the end of the pilot, after that particular Leader had been destroyed, and a new one was in place, we are told the Cylons are taking a different tactic, and Baltar is to find the fleet and deliver a message of peace.

But the Cylons just keep on trying to kill them.
Agreed, there was no way any sane person in the remenants of the colonial fleet was going to buy the Cylon's wanting peace. After all they had been on there way to sign a peace treaty when the Cylons virtually an annihlated them.

Besides whilst they might not have been a threat to them them who knows if that would remain the case.
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Old June 2 2013, 04:11 AM   #14
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Re: TOS question?

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Eventually they started to get some focus, but then the network pressured them to leave the Cylons behind and introduce new bad guys, leading to the Terra arc, the Borellians, and the like.
Not quite - the 'Terra' story was the result of the Network wanting them to actually find Earth (And yes the Exec didn't get that achieving that goal would effectively end the series); so, they came up with the Terra storyline as a result.

Last edited by Noname Given; June 2 2013 at 09:18 PM. Reason: Fixed my misquote
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Old June 2 2013, 04:49 AM   #15
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Re: TOS question?

I didn't write that.
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