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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old October 14 2013, 11:44 AM   #226
captain crow
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Or it could be a reference to the fact that the regeneration limit can be extended, as the Time Lords offered the Master in The Five Doctors.
Lonemagpie wrote: View Post
The Timeys offer the Master a new set in The Five Doctors after he reached the limit.
The Master is kind of a special case since he wasn't actually a Gallifreyan or even technically a Time Lord when he was offered a new set of regenerations. He was a Traken. Borusa was more or less offering him a new Gallifreyan/Time Lord body (a blank clone or some flunky no one would miss) with a fresh life cycle for him to pull his body snatcher routine on.
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Old October 14 2013, 02:26 PM   #227
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

captain crow wrote: View Post
The Master is kind of a special case since he wasn't actually a Gallifreyan or even technically a Time Lord when he was offered a new set of regenerations. He was a Traken.
Ooh, good point. By that time, he'd taken over Tremas's body. Although his old body did merge with Tremas's through the power of the Source, so it's hard to say whether the revived Master was purely Trakenite or some sort of hybrid.

Borusa was more or less offering him a new Gallifreyan/Time Lord body (a blank clone or some flunky no one would miss) with a fresh life cycle for him to pull his body snatcher routine on.
Or, he may have been offering the use of the gizmo from "Mawdryn Undead" which could potentially induce regenerative ability in non-Gallifreyans.

Although I'm not sure why the Master would've wanted a new regeneration cycle at the time of "The Five Doctors," since by that point -- or soon thereafter, at least -- he had his own ways of reviving after certain death. In "Planet of Fire" he was vaporized before the Doctor's eyes, but he soon came back intact with no explanation. And in the '96 movie we saw that when he was disintegrated by the Daleks, his consciousness survived in a gelatinous form that could possess a new body and take it over. I like to think that the same mechanism let him survive "Planet of Fire," although that doesn't explain how he regained his Tremas body. Anyway, I always figured it was probably a power he gained from the Source of Traken.
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Old October 14 2013, 02:46 PM   #228
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

Christopher wrote: View Post
Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
2)He exceeded the limit a long time ago, as Brain of Morbius showcases other incarnations of his.
Except, again, that's an inconsistency. "The Three Doctors" had already explicitly stated that Hartnell was the Doctor's earliest self; the Time Lords referred to him that way when they summoned him from the timestream. So "Morbius"'s portrayal of pre-Hartnell Doctors contradicted what had already been established -- and what came later, since there have been multiple subsequent references to Hartnell being the first, either directly or implicitly. For instance, in "The Five Doctors," the First Doctor called himself "the original, you might say," and in "Mawdryn Undead," the Fifth Doctor said explicitly that he had regenerated four times only.

So it doesn't make sense to pick out the "Morbius" reference and claim it's proof when there are dozens of other references that explicitly, consistently contradict it. It's the exception, not the rule. Yes, DW canon is a mess of conflicting references, made by many different people who generally assumed that earlier serials would be lost or forgotten and that they were free to ignore or reinterpret them at will. Generally it's best to recognize that and not get too attached to any one claim or interpretation to the exclusion of others; we should acknowledge all the contradictory information. But in this case, the evidence that Hartnell was the earliest Doctor is abundant throughout the series, and the "Morbius" scene is the one and only thing that suggests anything to the contrary. It's not enough to tip the scales measurably away from the interpretation that Hartnell came first.
In my defense, I wasn't really serious with that suggestion. Its just an easy pick to make in a discussion that stems from Moffat's claim that there's a hidden nugget that seemingly everyone has ignored but he hasn't. Just pointing out some of the obvious ones, that have been pointed out by others as well.

Personally, I think the other persons in that read-through of their minds really were Morbius previous faces. It'd be possible, right?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Or, he may have been offering the use of the gizmo from "Mawdryn Undead" which could potentially induce regenerative ability in non-Gallifreyans.

Although I'm not sure why the Master would've wanted a new regeneration cycle at the time of "The Five Doctors," since by that point -- or soon thereafter, at least -- he had his own ways of reviving after certain death. In "Planet of Fire" he was vaporized before the Doctor's eyes, but he soon came back intact with no explanation. And in the '96 movie we saw that when he was disintegrated by the Daleks, his consciousness survived in a gelatinous form that could possess a new body and take it over. I like to think that the same mechanism let him survive "Planet of Fire," although that doesn't explain how he regained his Tremas body. Anyway, I always figured it was probably a power he gained from the Source of Traken.
Or, you know, Death saved Master a couple of times too many.

Yes, my love for Big Finish's Master audio story kinda got to me.
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Old October 14 2013, 02:53 PM   #229
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

Steven Moffat explains the John Hurt Doctor.

What I don't understand is, when does the Doctor talk about his former incarnations? Its very, very rare that he did - indeed, only the Sixth ever has, in both his televised and audio adventures, talked at any length frequently about his past incarnations. So I'm rather puzzled about that.
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"Spock...?" Kirk said, whispering.
"I am... most pleased to see again, Captain" Spock formally replied.
McCoy shook his head in disgust. "Oh, for crying out loud, Spock. Its been eighty years!"
"Seventy eight point four years, Doctor."

The Holy Three meet again, in The Return
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Old October 14 2013, 03:02 PM   #230
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
Steven Moffat explains the John Hurt Doctor.

What I don't understand is, when does the Doctor talk about his former incarnations? Its very, very rare that he did - indeed, only the Sixth ever has, in both his televised and audio adventures, talked at any length frequently about his past incarnations. So I'm rather puzzled about that.
I think it's more related to the fact the Doctor does talk about things he's done in his past, even as the other incarnations. However, this Doctor is one his successors just ignore and refuse to acknowledge existed.

Although, curiously enough, the existence of Hurt's Doctor actually helps explain one inconsistency. The Doctor tells Sarah Jane in School Reunion he's regenerated "half a dozen times" since they last met. Although she has met the Fifth Doctor. But if you count Hurt, that does make six regenerations.
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Old October 14 2013, 03:29 PM   #231
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
Personally, I think the other persons in that read-through of their minds really were Morbius previous faces. It'd be possible, right?
That's a popular retcon, but the dialogue makes it clear that they're meant to be the Doctor's earlier lives. The only real explanation is that Doctor Who has never really bothered much with continuity and so it contradicts itself all the time. Even the modern show, which is far more aware of continuity, is still quite cavalier about it -- look how Moffat wasted no time using his "cracks in time" to erase some of RTD's excesses like "Journey's End" and the Cyber King rampage. DW continuity has always been extremely protean; Moffat has just canonized that as part of the way time actually works in the show's universe, as something that's constantly being rewritten.



Or, you know, Death saved Master a couple of times too many.

Yes, my love for Big Finish's Master audio story kinda got to me.
Not familiar with it.
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Old October 14 2013, 04:19 PM   #232
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

Christopher wrote: View Post
Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
Or, you know, Death saved Master a couple of times too many.

Yes, my love for Big Finish's Master audio story kinda got to me.
Not familiar with it.
Definitely worth checking out. It's a very atmospheric story with great performances by Sylvester McCoy and Geoffrey Beevers. However, it does play around with the very basis of The Doctor, The Master, and their relationship as well as introducing a character that I'm still not quite comfortable with.
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Old October 14 2013, 04:59 PM   #233
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

Evil Headhunter wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
Or, you know, Death saved Master a couple of times too many.

Yes, my love for Big Finish's Master audio story kinda got to me.
Not familiar with it.
Definitely worth checking out. It's a very atmospheric story with great performances by Sylvester McCoy and Geoffrey Beevers. However, it does play around with the very basis of The Doctor, The Master, and their relationship as well as introducing a character that I'm still not quite comfortable with.
Honestly though, I think its a necessary buffer from the Ainly/Roberts Master to the Jacobi/Simm Master, and for the attitude of Doctor towards him in the Simms version.
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"Spock...?" Kirk said, whispering.
"I am... most pleased to see again, Captain" Spock formally replied.
McCoy shook his head in disgust. "Oh, for crying out loud, Spock. Its been eighty years!"
"Seventy eight point four years, Doctor."

The Holy Three meet again, in The Return
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Old October 14 2013, 06:17 PM   #234
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

Oh, also, on technicalities:
The Second Doctor claimed to have been rejuvenated not regenerated.


The Time Lords told him they'd only change his appearance.


There are two off-screen changes in which we don't actually know what really happened...

And Moffat talks bollocks and lies all the time which means the next episode will probably just establish that there's no such limit anyway...
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Old October 14 2013, 08:12 PM   #235
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
Evil Headhunter wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Not familiar with it.
Definitely worth checking out. It's a very atmospheric story with great performances by Sylvester McCoy and Geoffrey Beevers. However, it does play around with the very basis of The Doctor, The Master, and their relationship as well as introducing a character that I'm still not quite comfortable with.
Honestly though, I think its a necessary buffer from the Ainly/Roberts Master to the Jacobi/Simm Master, and for the attitude of Doctor towards him in the Simms version.
Oh, I don't have a problem with that aspect of the story anymore, although I did the first time around. My issue is with
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Old October 14 2013, 08:49 PM   #236
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

Wow, Moffat comes across as such a shallow RTD-esque producer type in that interview. Flat out admits this whole John Hurt Doctor thing came about after he thought it'd be a cool idea if they got a big star to play The Doctor for one episode.

Shallow stunt casting with only ratings in mind, and yes, I would prefer an actual Doctor from the classic series. Every time I see Hurt standing there, I'm annoyed it isn't McGann, McCoy, or whoever.
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Old October 14 2013, 09:48 PM   #237
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Wow, Moffat comes across as such a shallow RTD-esque producer type in that interview. Flat out admits this whole John Hurt Doctor thing came about after he thought it'd be a cool idea if they got a big star to play The Doctor for one episode.

Shallow stunt casting with only ratings in mind, and yes, I would prefer an actual Doctor from the classic series. Every time I see Hurt standing there, I'm annoyed it isn't McGann, McCoy, or whoever.
Ditto.

John Hurt is a good actor, but I'd much rather have Paul McGann, Sylvester McCoy, or even Peter Davison if it came to it.

True, I don't want an overcrowded story, I don't want an Eleven Doctors, and I was desperate for Tennant to return, he was the doctor of my generation after all, but I'd still love one or two classic doctors too.

Paul McGann appeared for about 40 minutes in his entire era, I think the BBC are missing out on a chance to ease fans pain by having him return again, and to be honest, the BBC in general are missing out on an opportunity to celebrate the 50th anniversary of doctor who.
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Old October 14 2013, 10:23 PM   #238
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

"ease fans pain"? Really? Pain?

It's hard to take that seriously.
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Old October 14 2013, 10:32 PM   #239
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

Moffatt said in the interview words to the effect that if there were one classic Doctor who ought to be brought back, it's Hartnell, as he's the first, that Tennant and Smith are his children. So is the Hurt Doctor therefore a substitute First Doctor - rather than a Doctor between McGann and Eccleston, is he going to be pre-Hartnell?
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Old October 14 2013, 10:35 PM   #240
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
Moffatt said in the interview words to the effect that if there were one classic Doctor who ought to be brought back, it's Hartnell, as he's the first, that Tennant and Smith are his children. So is the Hurt Doctor therefore a substitute First Doctor - rather than a Doctor between McGann and Eccleston, is he going to be pre-Hartnell?
I don't think you should read that into it.
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