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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old October 13 2013, 05:20 PM   #211
Emperor-Tiberius
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
Maybe this incarnation was never intended to be permanent. Could he be a 'forced' reincarnation like how the Timelords forced the Second Doctor to regenerate, but on this occasion, they deliberately created a more ruthless version of the Doctor intending him to be short-lived. This would explain why he doesn't have his own unique identity, as well as being why he did whatever it is the other Doctors are ashamed of.
Excellent point, and my personal hope for this incarnation.
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Old October 13 2013, 07:39 PM   #212
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Noddy wrote: View Post

Do we really know that for sure though? It wouldn't make a lot of sense, as Eccleston's Doctor has been acknowledged several times over the series; his existence has never been denied by anyone, including the Doctor himself.
I believe the point is that if Eccleston had been willing, Moffat would've written a different story, one that would've made use of Eccleston instead of introducing a hitherto-unacknowledged incarnation.
That could be true. Of course, this could've been a story that Moffat has always wanted to tell, and was going to do it regardless if Eccelston was in it or not. Moffat had to suspect that Eccelston wasn't going to do it.

Until Moffat does his own version of The Writer's Tale we may never now.
I am reasonably certain, just based on the final scene of The Name of the Doctor that John Hurt would have been in Day of the Doctor even if Eccleston agreed to be in it.

Granted, it's just a gut instinct and I have nothing official to back it up. But I am pretty sure Moffat would have told this story of a darker incarnation of the Doctor shunned by his successors to the point they don't consider him a true Doctor anyway. Eccleston's refusal just meant one less actor needing to be paid.
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Old October 13 2013, 09:07 PM   #213
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

There may not be appearances, but I wouldn't be that shocked if there wasn't an explanatory flashback to McGann regenning to Hurt, and a final shot of Hurt to Eccleston, both using doubles and existing footage.
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Old October 13 2013, 09:25 PM   #214
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
There may not be appearances, but I wouldn't be that shocked if there wasn't an explanatory flashback to McGann regenning to Hurt, and a final shot of Hurt to Eccleston, both using doubles and existing footage.
I think the usage of stock footage for Eccleston, in the instance that they DO show Hurt's regeneration, is a possibility. And an opportune moment for McGann to cameo in his second and final APPEARENCE on Who.

Here's hoping!
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"Spock...?" Kirk said, whispering.
"I am... most pleased to see again, Captain" Spock formally replied.
McCoy shook his head in disgust. "Oh, for crying out loud, Spock. Its been eighty years!"
"Seventy eight point four years, Doctor."

The Holy Three meet again, in The Return
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Old October 13 2013, 09:32 PM   #215
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
I understand why they might've gone for it, to help establish the intent of that incarnation being in-between the other two, but I don't think its quite in-character for the Doctor. He's always gone for a stark contrast, clothes-wise, in each subsequent incarnation, with no real connections to his previous clothing.

Now, I know I'm reading too much into this, and probably shouldn't be bothered by this, but... well, it just doesn't make sense to me, really.
Well, as far as clothing similarity, there was that Question Mark thing he passed from Incarnation to Incarnation for awhile
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Old October 13 2013, 10:34 PM   #216
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

If Paul McGann appeared, life would be golden.
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Old October 14 2013, 02:17 AM   #217
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

"He can only regenerate 12 times… I think you should go back to your DVDs and count correctly this time. There’s something you’ve all missed."
- Steven Moffat, the Cheltenham Literature Festival

"I know people are worried (about the regeneration limit)...But I know Steven Moffat has put in the groundwork already."
- Peter Davison

What have we missed???
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Old October 14 2013, 02:34 AM   #218
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
"He can only regenerate 12 times… I think you should go back to your DVDs and count correctly this time. There’s something you’ve all missed."
- Steven Moffat, the Cheltenham Literature Festival

"I know people are worried (about the regeneration limit)...But I know Steven Moffat has put in the groundwork already."
- Peter Davison

What have we missed???
Probably referring to Brain of Morbius which shows other incarnations of the Doctor.

Or it could be a reference to the fact that the regeneration limit can be extended, as the Time Lords offered the Master in The Five Doctors. Or that a Time Lord can transfer regenerations to another Time Lord. And River did give the Doctor all her remaining regenerations in Let's Kill Hitler. So the Doctor might already be capable of an additional ten lives or so.
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Old October 14 2013, 03:06 AM   #219
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

I'm still on the "Timelords limited the regenerations to 12" train of thought. Wasn't there a line somewhere about ancient Timelords having unlimited lives?

Sure, they could offer more or an entire new cycle if they wanted.

But now, no Timelords, no limit.
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Old October 14 2013, 05:14 AM   #220
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

It turns out that the Doctor got so many points for re-booting the universe that he got a couple of 1-Ups.
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Old October 14 2013, 07:24 AM   #221
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

1)He gained 12 more regenerations because of the rebooting of the universe.

2)He exceeded the limit a long time ago, as Brain of Morbius showcases other incarnations of his.

3)I don't know.
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"Spock...?" Kirk said, whispering.
"I am... most pleased to see again, Captain" Spock formally replied.
McCoy shook his head in disgust. "Oh, for crying out loud, Spock. Its been eighty years!"
"Seventy eight point four years, Doctor."

The Holy Three meet again, in The Return
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Old October 14 2013, 09:47 AM   #222
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
1)He gained 12 more regenerations because of the rebooting of the universe.

2)He exceeded the limit a long time ago, as Brain of Morbius showcases other incarnations of his.

3)I don't know.
4) Golden Goose will not be killed off.
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Old October 14 2013, 09:49 AM   #223
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

Gov Karnstein wrote: View Post
Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
1)He gained 12 more regenerations because of the rebooting of the universe.

2)He exceeded the limit a long time ago, as Brain of Morbius showcases other incarnations of his.

3)I don't know.
4) Golden Goose will not be killed off.
We have a winner!
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"Spock...?" Kirk said, whispering.
"I am... most pleased to see again, Captain" Spock formally replied.
McCoy shook his head in disgust. "Oh, for crying out loud, Spock. Its been eighty years!"
"Seventy eight point four years, Doctor."

The Holy Three meet again, in The Return
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Old October 14 2013, 10:39 AM   #224
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

The Second Doctor also says his people live forever ("barring accidents")

There's the Morbius pre-Hartnell Doctors

Then came the Deadly Assassin retcon that implies that the Timeys *applied* a limit.

The Timeys offer the Master a new set in The Five Doctors after he reached the limit

Of course The Death of The Doctor has Eleven say he can regenerate hundreds of times.

Then again, River uses *all* her regenerations in Let's Kill Hitler. But both she and the Doctor lie, so fuck knows on that one. Maybe it's just all her regenerative power or ability rather than a specific number.
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Old October 14 2013, 11:31 AM   #225
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Re: 50th Is "The Day Of The Doctor" (And Is 75 Minutes)

Ar-Pharazon wrote: View Post
I'm still on the "Timelords limited the regenerations to 12" train of thought. Wasn't there a line somewhere about ancient Timelords having unlimited lives?
Not canonically, as far as I know. But of course Who canon is fraught with contradictions. The Third Doctor once (nearly) claimed to be thousands of years old even after the Second had said he was in his 400s -- and before the Fourth went with 700s.

The actual line in "The Deadly Assassin" is that "After the twelfth regeneration, there is no plan that will postpone death." It's strongly implied that it is a natural, insurmountable limit -- indeed, the Master needs to destroy Gallifrey and half the universe in order to circumvent it. Of course, later serials ignored this, but that just reflects the folly of trying to pretend there's a consistent continuity here. The show has said many contradictory things over the decades, but nobody in the show ever, ever said that the 12-life limit was artificially imposed by the Time Lords. That's a fan belief.



Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
2)He exceeded the limit a long time ago, as Brain of Morbius showcases other incarnations of his.
Except, again, that's an inconsistency. "The Three Doctors" had already explicitly stated that Hartnell was the Doctor's earliest self; the Time Lords referred to him that way when they summoned him from the timestream. So "Morbius"'s portrayal of pre-Hartnell Doctors contradicted what had already been established -- and what came later, since there have been multiple subsequent references to Hartnell being the first, either directly or implicitly. For instance, in "The Five Doctors," the First Doctor called himself "the original, you might say," and in "Mawdryn Undead," the Fifth Doctor said explicitly that he had regenerated four times only.

So it doesn't make sense to pick out the "Morbius" reference and claim it's proof when there are dozens of other references that explicitly, consistently contradict it. It's the exception, not the rule. Yes, DW canon is a mess of conflicting references, made by many different people who generally assumed that earlier serials would be lost or forgotten and that they were free to ignore or reinterpret them at will. Generally it's best to recognize that and not get too attached to any one claim or interpretation to the exclusion of others; we should acknowledge all the contradictory information. But in this case, the evidence that Hartnell was the earliest Doctor is abundant throughout the series, and the "Morbius" scene is the one and only thing that suggests anything to the contrary. It's not enough to tip the scales measurably away from the interpretation that Hartnell came first.
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