RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 144,887
Posts: 5,698,488
Members: 25,690
Currently online: 490
Newest member: sabankhasdw

TrekToday headlines

Russ Explains Star Wars Day
By: T'Bonz on May 4

New Seekers Book Covers Debut
By: T'Bonz on May 4

Whitney Passes
By: T'Bonz on May 4

Retro Review: Phage
By: Michelle on May 2

The Next Generation Shower Curtain
By: T'Bonz on May 1

Burton Part of Roots Reboot
By: T'Bonz on May 1

May-June 2015 Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Apr 30

Ross To Attend Trek Convention
By: T'Bonz on Apr 29

William Shatner Presents Chaos On The Bridge US Premiere
By: T'Bonz on Apr 29

Trek Phaser Monitor Mate Bobble Prop
By: T'Bonz on Apr 28


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 12 2014, 09:55 PM   #1
EnriqueH
Fleet Captain
 
EnriqueH's Avatar
 
Location: Miami
Diane Duane: Old School Trek II

I thought this deserved its own thread:

In my "Old School Trek Writers" Thread, Diane Duane was mentioned.

One of my favorite Trek books from back in the day was "Doctor's Orders".

Did anyone see the connection between that book and the Commodore 64, mid 1980s video game "The Kobayashi Alternative"?

The planet "Flyspeck" was one of the connections between the book and the game.

Very, very cool.
__________________
Why do you say this to me? When you know I will kill you for it?
EnriqueH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 12 2014, 10:42 PM   #2
borgboy
Fleet Captain
 
borgboy's Avatar
 
Re: Diane Duane: Old School Trek II

I just re-read The Romulan Way a few days ago. I read it as a teen when it was new, which was so long ago I'd forgotten nearly everything about it anyways.
It's a good book, and obviously very influential in the development of the Romulans. Ael is a good, strong character. I'm doing a read release order read thru of all my Trek novels (I have hundreds of them, not nearly complete, but still a lot), and I do plan to read/re-read all of Duane's Trek novels.
This book really makes me think how much the Romulans got screwed over going forward in the franchise to prop up the Klingons as the "noble" enemies.
__________________
Resistance is futile
borgboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 13 2014, 05:18 PM   #3
Reanok
Commodore
 
Re: Diane Duane: Old School Trek II

I really like Diane Duane's Romulan books. I reread them last year.
Reanok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 14 2014, 12:56 AM   #4
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Diane Duane: Old School Trek II

EnriqueH wrote: View Post
Did anyone see the connection between that book and the Commodore 64, mid 1980s video game "The Kobayashi Alternative"?
The planet "Flyspeck" was one of the connections between the book and the game.
Yep. I think I was the one who added those connections (inc. several alien races) to Memory Beta. The game was available in numerous formats, not just Commodore 64. Mine was for Apple IIe and I used to bring home the work computer, plus an extra external disk drive (at weekends with the Principal's commission), so I didn't have to keep switching disks during the game.

borgboy wrote: View Post
... how much the Romulans got screwed over going forward in the franchise to prop up the Klingons as the "noble" enemies.
I think the switch - Romulan traits being given to Klingons - dates back to the original script synopsis "Star Trek III: Return to Genesis", in which the Romulans and their bird of prey ship were suddenly given to the Klingons in the rewrites (sensibly, since general movie audiences probably wouldn't have understood all the various vulcanoids and which sides they represented - Saavik, Sarek, Kruge, Valkris, the reborn Spock being, etc). But it did have long-reaching effects, and we had Worf and other Klingons oft-quoting honor and duty in Season One of TNG.

Valkris's acceptance of death by her lover in ST III was essentially an unnecessary Romulan ritual suicide. (Interestingly, Valkris is drawn with pointed ears in the ST III comic adaptation, although this was an artist error.)
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/

Last edited by Therin of Andor; September 14 2014 at 01:14 AM.
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 16 2014, 06:34 PM   #5
vegaslover62
Lieutenant Commander
 
vegaslover62's Avatar
 
Location: 2112 Rivendell, Xanadu. In the Lakeside Park Subdivisions on the beautiful Bacchus Plateau
Re: Diane Duane: Old School Trek II

Doctor's Orders is my second favorite out of all the 500+ novels I own. (PAD's Vendetta being the first)

My Enemy, My Ally is the only Trek novel I've read twice.
vegaslover62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 16 2014, 07:27 PM   #6
Reanok
Commodore
 
Re: Diane Duane: Old School Trek II

Doctor's Orders is a great book.I really like seeig Dr. McCoy in charge of the Enterprise.
Reanok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18 2014, 01:52 PM   #7
tomswift2002
Fleet Captain
 
Re: Diane Duane: Old School Trek II

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post

I think the switch - Romulan traits being given to Klingons - dates back to the original script synopsis "Star Trek III: Return to Genesis", in which the Romulans and their bird of prey ship were suddenly given to the Klingons in the rewrites (sensibly, since general movie audiences probably wouldn't have understood all the various vulcanoids and which sides they represented - Saavik, Sarek, Kruge, Valkris, the reborn Spock being, etc). But it did have long-reaching effects, and we had Worf and other Klingons oft-quoting honor and duty in Season One of TNG.
I think the switch dates back even further, to about 1967. Think of "Balance Of Terror" we had the Romulans talking about Honor, but then those traits were given to the Klingons in all their TOS appearances.
tomswift2002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18 2014, 02:10 PM   #8
Commishsleer
Fleet Captain
 
Commishsleer's Avatar
 
Location: CommishSleer
View Commishsleer's Twitter Profile
Re: Diane Duane: Old School Trek II

tomswift2002 wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post

I think the switch - Romulan traits being given to Klingons - dates back to the original script synopsis "Star Trek III: Return to Genesis", in which the Romulans and their bird of prey ship were suddenly given to the Klingons in the rewrites (sensibly, since general movie audiences probably wouldn't have understood all the various vulcanoids and which sides they represented - Saavik, Sarek, Kruge, Valkris, the reborn Spock being, etc). But it did have long-reaching effects, and we had Worf and other Klingons oft-quoting honor and duty in Season One of TNG.
I think the switch dates back even further, to about 1967. Think of "Balance Of Terror" we had the Romulans talking about Honor, but then those traits were given to the Klingons in all their TOS appearances.
Koloth never talked about honour.
Or those Klingons chasing the Enterprise in "Elaan of Troyius" didn't seem particularly honourable. Neither did that joker in Friday's Child.
__________________
Thank you, Thank you ... for being so dumb - GBH
You think you're all that, but you're not! - Dr Drakken
Is this really the finish of Batfink ... and Karate? - Narrator
Commishsleer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 18 2014, 03:04 PM   #9
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Diane Duane: Old School Trek II

^Right. The Making of Star Trek, from 1968, defined Klingons as intrinsically treacherous: "Their only rule of life is that rules are made to be broken by shrewdness, deceit, or power. Cruelty is something admirable; honor is a despicable trait." (p. 257, emphasis added)

And one paragraph above, it says about the Romulans: "Although members of a warrior society in which the strong alone survive, they live their beliefs with great integrity."

Therin is quite right: The first time a Klingon mentioned honor was in The Search for Spock, which was written with Romulans in mind and then changed them to Klingons without altering anything else about them (which is also how the Klingons suddenly had Birds of Prey). And once TNG decided to "reform" the Klingons and make them allies of the Federation, they picked up that honor reference and ran with it, retconning the formerly treachery-loving Klingons as a people defined by their sense of honor, in order to enable audiences to see them as admirable.
__________________
Written Worlds -- My blog and webpage
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2014, 02:07 AM   #10
Commishsleer
Fleet Captain
 
Commishsleer's Avatar
 
Location: CommishSleer
View Commishsleer's Twitter Profile
Re: Diane Duane: Old School Trek II

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Right. The Making of Star Trek, from 1968, defined Klingons as intrinsically treacherous: "Their only rule of life is that rules are made to be broken by shrewdness, deceit, or power. Cruelty is something admirable; honor is a despicable trait." (p. 257, emphasis added)

And one paragraph above, it says about the Romulans: "Although members of a warrior society in which the strong alone survive, they live their beliefs with great integrity."

Therin is quite right: The first time a Klingon mentioned honor was in The Search for Spock, which was written with Romulans in mind and then changed them to Klingons without altering anything else about them (which is also how the Klingons suddenly had Birds of Prey). And once TNG decided to "reform" the Klingons and make them allies of the Federation, they picked up that honor reference and ran with it, retconning the formerly treachery-loving Klingons as a people defined by their sense of honor, in order to enable audiences to see them as admirable.
Nimoy was in charge of TSFS. I wondered why he let that get through. Or was it a deliberate plan? I can't see why not have Romulans continue on in TNG instead of Klingons.
__________________
Thank you, Thank you ... for being so dumb - GBH
You think you're all that, but you're not! - Dr Drakken
Is this really the finish of Batfink ... and Karate? - Narrator
Commishsleer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2014, 02:32 AM   #11
JD
Admiral
 
JD's Avatar
 
Location: Arizona, USA
Re: Diane Duane: Old School Trek II

I wonder what the TNG era Klingons and Romulans would have been like if that switch hadn't taken place.
__________________
They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance. - Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites
JD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2014, 03:23 AM   #12
EnriqueH
Fleet Captain
 
EnriqueH's Avatar
 
Location: Miami
Re: Diane Duane: Old School Trek II

"Veree inte-resTING..."
__________________
Why do you say this to me? When you know I will kill you for it?
EnriqueH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2014, 03:40 AM   #13
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Diane Duane: Old School Trek II

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Nimoy was in charge of TSFS. I wondered why he let that get through. Or was it a deliberate plan?
Well, the "You will be remembered with honor" thing was just one line, and the Klingons' behavior in the rest of the movie was pretty much their typical treachery and cruelty. As I said, it wasn't until TNG that the Klingons were clearly redefined as an honorable civilization.

Keeping the Bird of Prey with a cloaking device is a bit harder to explain, but it can be taken as an outgrowth of "The Enterprise Incident"'s reference to Klingon-Romulan technology exchange. If Romulans were using Klingon battlecruisers, it stands to reason that they sold cloaks to the Klingons in exchange, and perhaps the BoP was a joint Klingon-Romulan design (although I think BoPs have subsequently been retconned as existing much earlier).


I can't see why not have Romulans continue on in TNG instead of Klingons.
Well, Roddenberry's original intention was to avoid reusing any of the TOS races in a major capacity, and take the show in a distinct direction. He was talked into adding a friendly Klingon character as a way of showing how much things had improved since the old days, and maybe as a way of bringing the Organians' prediction from "Errand of Mercy" to pass. It made sense to make Worf a Klingon rather than a Romulan because Klingons were the more prominent adversaries in TOS. We tend to think of Klingons and Romulans as having equal status as bad guys, but the fact is that in TOS, Klingons were in seven episodes and Romulans in only three (with speaking Romulan characters, as opposed to ships, in only two). The Klingons were TOS's primary villains and the Romulans were secondary. That's probably a factor in why TSFS itself chose to use Klingons.
__________________
Written Worlds -- My blog and webpage
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2014, 04:00 AM   #14
borgboy
Fleet Captain
 
borgboy's Avatar
 
Re: Diane Duane: Old School Trek II

This is all very interesting.
It's surprising to hear that the Romulans are only seen in two TOS eps. Even having watched the whole series several times, I think of them having a bigger presence. I suppose they make such a big impression it feels like they should be around more than they are.
I get a bit tired of hearing about "honor" from 24th century Klingons. I found it very refreshing for Ezri Dax to be more critical of them after so much adoration for Klingons from other characters.
__________________
Resistance is futile
borgboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2014, 05:06 AM   #15
Avro Arrow
Fleet Captain
 
Avro Arrow's Avatar
 
Location: Secret Arctic Base
Re: Diane Duane: Old School Trek II

Christopher wrote: View Post
Keeping the Bird of Prey with a cloaking device is a bit harder to explain, but it can be taken as an outgrowth of "The Enterprise Incident"'s reference to Klingon-Romulan technology exchange. If Romulans were using Klingon battlecruisers, it stands to reason that they sold cloaks to the Klingons in exchange, and perhaps the BoP was a joint Klingon-Romulan design (although I think BoPs have subsequently been retconned as existing much earlier).
I may be misremembering, but didn't the Klingons have cloaks already in TAS?
__________________
Grace Lee Whitney (1930 - 2015)
~ Rest In Peace ~

ENTER the VOY 11:59 and the ENT Detained Avatar Contests
Avro Arrow is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:33 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.