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Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 12 2013, 03:57 PM   #346
Hober Mallow
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Re: Orci strikes back

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
...they had to fill in established roles from TOS with similar actors, so they had limited options for most of the major casting.
I don't agree at all that they had to cast similar-looking actors. They didn't have to do any such thing.

I think Spock may have been better served by someone who looked nothing at all like Leonard Nimoy's Spock, someone who brought back the exotic alien feeling Spock evoked when TOS first aired. Quinto looks more like Nimoy than probably any other young actor, but I still can't see him as Spock. He just seems like a pissy passive-agressive human. There's nothing mysterious or alien-feeling about him.

I actually think Benedict Cumberbatch would have made a good Spock, looking exactly as he did in ID.
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Old September 12 2013, 04:09 PM   #347
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Re: Orci strikes back

Tosk wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
If you're not in the game, you don't get to call the plays, only comment on the result.
Isn't that all we're doing? Commenting on the result?
The commenting on the result, would be commenting on the movie; not making person or professional digs at the man. Not everyone was doing that. And that's what set him off. People are acting like he just decided to go of for no reason, when he had plenty of provocation leading up this.
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Old September 12 2013, 04:14 PM   #348
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Orci strikes back

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
...they had to fill in established roles from TOS with similar actors, so they had limited options for most of the major casting.
I don't agree at all that they had to cast similar-looking actors. They didn't have to do any such thing.

I think Spock may have been better served by someone who looked nothing at all like Leonard Nimoy's Spock, someone who brought back the exotic alien feeling Spock evoked when TOS first aired. Quinto looks more like Nimoy than probably any other young actor, but I still can't see him as Spock. He just seems like a pissy passive-agressive human. There's nothing mysterious or alien-feeling about him.

I actually think Benedict Cumberbatch would have made a good Spock, looking exactly as he did in ID.
You missed my point completely and reposted the comment out of context. I don't mean similar as in getting as close to the same facial appearance of the original actor as possible (the difference between Quinto and Cucumberpatch is minor compared to what I'm talking about), I mean they were limited in how much racial and gender bending they could do when recasting the main characters. They could make Kirk a black guy and Spock a woman, but look at how fans have flipped the hell out over even the relatively minor changes they have made, and how fans of other iconic comic book or scifi characters have freaked out about such changes before. I mean, there were people pissed about the changes to Starbuck in nuBSG, which is based on a cheesy canceled TV show from the 70s. And the outrage over the change to a fairly minor character like Heimdall in Thor despite getting a fantastic actor like Idris Elba in the role was ridiculous. The usual idiots would be out in force crying "PC strikes again!" and we'd never hear the end of it.
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Old September 12 2013, 04:16 PM   #349
JarodRussell
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Re: Orci strikes back

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
...they had to fill in established roles from TOS with similar actors, so they had limited options for most of the major casting.
I don't agree at all that they had to cast similar-looking actors. They didn't have to do any such thing.

I think Spock may have been better served by someone who looked nothing at all like Leonard Nimoy's Spock, someone who brought back the exotic alien feeling Spock evoked when TOS first aired. Quinto looks more like Nimoy than probably any other young actor, but I still can't see him as Spock. He just seems like a pissy passive-agressive human. There's nothing mysterious or alien-feeling about him.

I actually think Benedict Cumberbatch would have made a good Spock, looking exactly as he did in ID.
You missed my point completely and reposted the comment out of context. I don't mean similar as in getting as close to the same facial appearance of the original actor as possible (the difference between Quinto and Cucumberpatch is minor compared to what I'm talking about), I mean they were limited in how much racial and gender bending they could do when recasting the main characters. They could make Kirk a black guy and Spock a woman, but look at how fans have flipped the hell out over even the relatively minor changes they have made, and how fans of other iconic comic book or scifi characters have freaked out about such changes before. I mean, there were people pissed about the changes to Starbuck in BSG, which is based on a cheesy canceled TV show from the 70s. And the outrage over the change to a fairly minor character like Heimdall in Thor despite getting a fantastic actor like Idris Elba in the role was ridiculous.
But in all these cases, the outcry was by a vocal minority and it didn't hurt the success of the end product. So given their attitude regarding the hardcore fanbase, I don't see how they were "limited" in anything.
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Old September 12 2013, 04:32 PM   #350
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Re: Orci strikes back

Ya know, folks that like to get on the internet and toss around personal insults, (like calling JJ Abrams JarJar or tossing about the C-word, asshole, a myriad of other expressions denoting a lack of intelligence, or using the word fuck repeatedly when getting personally insulting about artists) I'd like to see them conduct themselves in that manner, when actually facing the artist in person. I mean why is it necessary to phrase something along the lines of "That was the worst piece of shit I ever saw, it stank so bad it burned my nose hairs off" (And an equally colorful follow up phrase stating anyone who doesn't agree is an artist bootlicker and a moron) rather than simply saying you didn't like it and what the actual issues were they actually had with it. And then, they wonder why people are offended for them "Just giving my opinion"

For some reason, some people just like to be as crass, graphic and colorful, and as insulting as possible due to the anonimity of the internet. Me personally, I actually try to be more polite on the internet
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Old September 12 2013, 04:32 PM   #351
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Orci strikes back

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
But in all these cases, the outcry was by a vocal minority and it didn't hurt the success of the end product. So given their attitude regarding the hardcore fanbase, I don't see how they were "limited" in anything.
Oh, please. People have already lost their shit over what are fairly minor changes to the characters and dynamic from TOS. You can't tell me with a straight face that it would have been no big deal if they had made drastic racial and gender changes to the main cast. There are people whining about Spock showing emotions or Uhura and Spock being in love despite both of those things being shown or hinted at as a possibility, respectively, in TOS. A lot of fans hate change, or even the perception of change. Major gender/racial bending of the main cast would have been an outrage to a lot of fans, and despite what some fans seem to think, the producers aren't looking to piss people off. Hell, it was an outrage for some changing from one white guy to another white guy with Khan, just because being of Spanish descent made Montalban slightly more Sikhish than Cumberbatch in some people's eyes, I guess.
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Old September 12 2013, 04:36 PM   #352
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Re: Orci strikes back

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post

Oh, please. People have already lost their shit over what are fairly minor changes to the characters and dynamic from TOS. You can't tell me with a straight face that it would have been no big deal if they had made drastic racial and gender changes to the main cast. There are people whining about Spock showing emotions or Uhura and Spock being in love despite both of those things being shown or hinted at as a possibility, respectively, in TOS. A lot of fans hate change, or even the perception of change. Major gender/racial bending of the main cast would have been an outrage to a lot of fans, and despite what some fans seem to think, the producers aren't looking to piss people off. Hell, it was an outrage for some changing from one white guy to another white guy with Khan, just because being of Spanish descent made Montalban slightly more Sikhish than Cumberbatch in some people's eyes, I guess.
I love it when the fan base say they want something new then scream bloody murder at the slightest change in the status-quo.
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Old September 12 2013, 04:52 PM   #353
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Re: Orci strikes back

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Ya know, folks that like to get on the internet and toss around personal insults, (like calling JJ Abrams JarJar or tossing about the C-word, asshole, a myriad of other expressions denoting a lack of intelligence, or using the word fuck repeatedly when getting personally insulting about artists) I'd like to see them conduct themselves in that manner, when actually facing the artist in person. I mean why is it necessary to phrase something along the lines of "That was the worst piece of shit I ever saw, it stank so bad it burned my nose hairs off" (And an equally colorful follow up phrase stating anyone who doesn't agree is an artist bootlicker and a moron) rather than simply saying you didn't like it and what the actual issues were they actually had with it. And then, they wonder why people are offended for them "Just giving my opinion"

For some reason, some people just like to be as crass, graphic and colorful, and as insulting as possible due to the anonimity of the internet. Me personally, I actually try to be more polite on the internet
Nothing I say online I wouldn't say to your (in the general sense) face. I don't pull my punches online, cause that'd make me a hypocrite since I don't pull them IRL. I cuss like a drunk sailor IRL--except when I'm around kids or in a professional setting. If you and I were to sit down and get a coffee, yeah you'd hear "fuck" a lot cause that's just the way I talk.

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
But in all these cases, the outcry was by a vocal minority and it didn't hurt the success of the end product. So given their attitude regarding the hardcore fanbase, I don't see how they were "limited" in anything.
Oh, please. People have already lost their shit over what are fairly minor changes to the characters and dynamic from TOS. You can't tell me with a straight face that it would have been no big deal if they had made drastic racial and gender changes to the main cast. There are people whining about Spock showing emotions or Uhura and Spock being in love despite both of those things being shown or hinted at as a possibility, respectively, in TOS. A lot of fans hate change, or even the perception of change. Major gender/racial bending of the main cast would have been an outrage to a lot of fans, and despite what some fans seem to think, the producers aren't looking to piss people off. Hell, it was an outrage for some changing from one white guy to another white guy with Khan, just because being of Spanish descent made Montalban slightly more Sikhish than Cumberbatch in some people's eyes, I guess.
I thought the whole shitstorm over Khan's race was not only some of the most idiotic, and dehumanizing ranting I've seen out of this fanbase.

The ones that had a legit concern about issue of "white washing" in Holywood were drowned out by the ones that were just pissed off that they had cast someone from a race other than what was "canon". It was sicking and funny at the same time to watch. It was a very vocal subset of the fans that were treating the actors like another piece of set dressing. Not caring if the actor was right for the role or who it was, so long as the production got someone with a canon skin tone. It was an embarrassment for the fans.
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Old September 12 2013, 05:12 PM   #354
Sindatur
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Re: Orci strikes back

Oh, it's not hypocritical for me to be more polite on the internet, it's because lack of tone of voice and expression, things can often be misunderstood on the internet.

Yea, I realize many folks use foul language in real life, but, I'm willing to bet, a great many of the crassest, most insulting people on the internet, wouldn't have the guts to act like that in front of the person they are insulting (IE: People who sit there talking smack in real life behind someone's back and don't have a word to say when faced with that person)

Regarding Khan's Canon Skin tone, yea, I think Cumberbatch was a bit too darkly complected compared to TWoK Khan's skin tone
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Old September 12 2013, 05:26 PM   #355
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Re: Orci strikes back

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Ya know, folks that like to get on the internet and toss around personal insults, (like calling JJ Abrams JarJar or tossing about the C-word, asshole, a myriad of other expressions denoting a lack of intelligence, or using the word fuck repeatedly when getting personally insulting about artists) I'd like to see them conduct themselves in that manner, when actually facing the artist in person. I mean why is it necessary to phrase something along the lines of "That was the worst piece of shit I ever saw, it stank so bad it burned my nose hairs off" (And an equally colorful follow up phrase stating anyone who doesn't agree is an artist bootlicker and a moron) rather than simply saying you didn't like it and what the actual issues were they actually had with it. And then, they wonder why people are offended for them "Just giving my opinion"

For some reason, some people just like to be as crass, graphic and colorful, and as insulting as possible due to the anonimity of the internet. Me personally, I actually try to be more polite on the internet
Thank you. I too wish more of us felt that way.
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Old September 12 2013, 05:29 PM   #356
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Re: Orci strikes back

SalvorHardin wrote: View Post
^^^
I find the first four letters of that guy's last name an appropriate way to describe him.
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Old September 12 2013, 05:53 PM   #357
JarodRussell
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Re: Orci strikes back

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
But in all these cases, the outcry was by a vocal minority and it didn't hurt the success of the end product. So given their attitude regarding the hardcore fanbase, I don't see how they were "limited" in anything.
Oh, please. People have already lost their shit over what are fairly minor changes to the characters and dynamic from TOS. You can't tell me with a straight face that it would have been no big deal if they had made drastic racial and gender changes to the main cast. There are people whining about Spock showing emotions or Uhura and Spock being in love despite both of those things being shown or hinted at as a possibility, respectively, in TOS. A lot of fans hate change, or even the perception of change. Major gender/racial bending of the main cast would have been an outrage to a lot of fans, and despite what some fans seem to think, the producers aren't looking to piss people off. Hell, it was an outrage for some changing from one white guy to another white guy with Khan, just because being of Spanish descent made Montalban slightly more Sikhish than Cumberbatch in some people's eyes, I guess.
Isn't that Orci's point? It doesn't matter because the film is a success and all that criticism comes from a minority of fans, not the majority of fans. The majority enjoys Spock and Uhura, the majority doesn't care about Khan's skin color, and apparently the majority didn't rate the film the worst Trek film.
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Old September 12 2013, 05:58 PM   #358
Locutus of Bored
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Re: Orci strikes back

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
But in all these cases, the outcry was by a vocal minority and it didn't hurt the success of the end product. So given their attitude regarding the hardcore fanbase, I don't see how they were "limited" in anything.
Oh, please. People have already lost their shit over what are fairly minor changes to the characters and dynamic from TOS. You can't tell me with a straight face that it would have been no big deal if they had made drastic racial and gender changes to the main cast. There are people whining about Spock showing emotions or Uhura and Spock being in love despite both of those things being shown or hinted at as a possibility, respectively, in TOS. A lot of fans hate change, or even the perception of change. Major gender/racial bending of the main cast would have been an outrage to a lot of fans, and despite what some fans seem to think, the producers aren't looking to piss people off. Hell, it was an outrage for some changing from one white guy to another white guy with Khan, just because being of Spanish descent made Montalban slightly more Sikhish than Cumberbatch in some people's eyes, I guess.
Isn't that Orci's point? It doesn't matter because the film is a success and all that criticism comes from a minority of fans, not the majority of fans. The majority enjoys Spock and Uhura, the majority doesn't care about Khan's skin color, and apparently the majority didn't rate the film the worst Trek film.
Who's even talking about Orci there? I was disagreeing with the premise in the article that STiD is "much whiter and more male" than any Trek has been in the past. Orci is entirely unrelated to what I was talking about with that specific point.
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Old September 12 2013, 06:04 PM   #359
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Re: Orci strikes back

Noname Given wrote: View Post
SalvorHardin wrote: View Post
^^^
I find the first four letters of that guy's last name an appropriate way to describe him.
Eh, he's written some pretty worthwhile stuff over the last year or more, and he wrote one opinionated editorial which got a lot of attention as a result of Orci's heated remarks in the comment thread.

Orci's closing of his Twitter account may indeed bring Dickerson's op/ed thing more attention, but what he sorta talks around is that the "boborci" ID used to post in TrekMovie (WordPress) comment threads hasn't anything at all to do with his Twitter account. (That account did figure in another recent brouhaha, but iinm it had little or nothing to do with Dickerson's "Star Trek is Broken" editorial piece.)
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Old September 12 2013, 06:15 PM   #360
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Re: Orci strikes back

Locutus of Bored wrote: View Post
I was disagreeing with the premise in the article that STiD is "much whiter and more male" than any Trek has been in the past.
It is when you compare it to the likes of Deep Space Nine. That was a seven year long show that had a black main character, a second-in-command female "full blooded" alien, a female "full blooded" alien liaison, a "full blooded" alien security chief, a "full blooded" alien bartender, an Irish operations officer and a genetically enhanced Sudanese.

Why the emphasis on the "full blooded" alien detail? Well, when the only named alien crew member is only half-alien and half-human and your story spends a lot of time with characters saying how much they hate his alien half and how he should be more human, I think we could use a little bit more alien diversity that doesn't resort to "Aliens are wrong, humanity is right!".
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