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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 11 2013, 02:06 AM   #286
JWPlatt
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Re: Orci strikes back

thumbtack wrote: View Post
Forbes is calling it "fan entitlement syndrome" and urging the studios to fight back. Their piece focused mainly on Ben Affleck and the 50 Shades of Grey petition. I don't think the Orci Strikes Back thing had started yet.
The internet as a basis is a democratic thing where everyone gets a voice (whether anyone is listening or not) or is at least an equal. Now, movie makers and stars are no better than you. Add to that, huge marketing pushes onto the internet from all aspects of the Hollywood machine, and you ultimately have a large presence of talent publicly available and online where they were once reclusive and private, simply by geographic distance if nothing else. Everyone is using Facebook, Twitter, going on promotional tours, and providing access to every podunk online entertainment news blogger who never would have been taken seriously before without being part of a national news service. One of the effects of being seen on TV is that people are familiar with you even if you are not familiar with them. Facebook, Twitter and everything else that the entertainment establishment does to get closer to us only serves to amplify that effect. If that establishment does not desire to hear back from us about what we want of them, they would be better off not using the bidirectional tools and egalitarian culture of the internet.
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Old September 11 2013, 02:55 AM   #287
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Re: Orci strikes back

Just because you yell the loudest doesn't make you either right or entitled to jack shit. A movie might be popular and critically loved, but if it doesn't make money then it's a waste of time. Movies are a business, and any studio that is more worried about what fans want or a bunch of entitled fans whining cause their precious canon got trashed needs to get out of the business; that sort of stuff is what fan films are for.
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Old September 11 2013, 03:18 AM   #288
sttngfan1701d
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Re: Orci strikes back

The bottom line is, the fans DO get to write some Trek stuff. And we get the Fan Productions of TOS out of it. Would that stuff reinvigorate the franchise like the Bad Robot films have if they were released as features? Hell no.

So Orci wins. A million times over.
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Old September 11 2013, 04:56 AM   #289
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Re: Orci strikes back

JWPlatt wrote: View Post
thumbtack wrote: View Post
Forbes is calling it "fan entitlement syndrome" and urging the studios to fight back. Their piece focused mainly on Ben Affleck and the 50 Shades of Grey petition. I don't think the Orci Strikes Back thing had started yet.
The internet as a basis is a democratic thing where everyone gets a voice (whether anyone is listening or not) or is at least an equal. Now, movie makers and stars are no better than you. Add to that, huge marketing pushes onto the internet from all aspects of the Hollywood machine, and you ultimately have a large presence of talent publicly available and online where they were once reclusive and private, simply by geographic distance if nothing else. Everyone is using Facebook, Twitter, going on promotional tours, and providing access to every podunk online entertainment news blogger who never would have been taken seriously before without being part of a national news service. One of the effects of being seen on TV is that people are familiar with you even if you are not familiar with them. Facebook, Twitter and everything else that the entertainment establishment does to get closer to us only serves to amplify that effect. If that establishment does not desire to hear back from us about what we want of them, they would be better off not using the bidirectional tools and egalitarian culture of the internet.
It's not about telling fans to be quiet. It's about telling fans they're not entitled to get what they want. Fans are entitled to express their views. They are not, nor should they ever be, entitled to satisfaction with the final artistic endeavour. The artist owes NOTHING to "fan expectations". It really is that simple. Of course, the artist is not owed a positive reception for the work either. But there is a lot more of "they should have listened to the fans" drivel than there are artists who demand a positive view of their work.

And if fans believe they are entitled to vomit all over something they didn't like in this egalitarian utopia, they should neither be surprised nor offended when an artist gives as good as he gets in that department.
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Old September 11 2013, 10:33 AM   #290
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Re: Orci strikes back

Ovation wrote: View Post
JWPlatt wrote: View Post
thumbtack wrote: View Post
Forbes is calling it "fan entitlement syndrome" and urging the studios to fight back. Their piece focused mainly on Ben Affleck and the 50 Shades of Grey petition. I don't think the Orci Strikes Back thing had started yet.
The internet as a basis is a democratic thing where everyone gets a voice (whether anyone is listening or not) or is at least an equal. Now, movie makers and stars are no better than you. Add to that, huge marketing pushes onto the internet from all aspects of the Hollywood machine, and you ultimately have a large presence of talent publicly available and online where they were once reclusive and private, simply by geographic distance if nothing else. Everyone is using Facebook, Twitter, going on promotional tours, and providing access to every podunk online entertainment news blogger who never would have been taken seriously before without being part of a national news service. One of the effects of being seen on TV is that people are familiar with you even if you are not familiar with them. Facebook, Twitter and everything else that the entertainment establishment does to get closer to us only serves to amplify that effect. If that establishment does not desire to hear back from us about what we want of them, they would be better off not using the bidirectional tools and egalitarian culture of the internet.
It's not about telling fans to be quiet. It's about telling fans they're not entitled to get what they want. Fans are entitled to express their views. They are not, nor should they ever be, entitled to satisfaction with the final artistic endeavour. The artist owes NOTHING to "fan expectations". It really is that simple. Of course, the artist is not owed a positive reception for the work either. But there is a lot more of "they should have listened to the fans" drivel than there are artists who demand a positive view of their work.

And if fans believe they are entitled to vomit all over something they didn't like in this egalitarian utopia, they should neither be surprised nor offended when an artist gives as good as he gets in that department.
Exactly.

It's like every moron who walks into a department store and demands satisfaction for something that wasn't up to their standards, yelling "the customer is always right!" right in the store owner's face.

Just because one pays money for a product doesn't give one the right to be a self-entitled dick.
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Old September 11 2013, 11:23 AM   #291
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Re: Orci strikes back

JWPlatt wrote: View Post
The internet as a basis is a democratic thing where everyone gets a voice (whether anyone is listening or not) or is at least an equal.
This is, obviously, false.

JWPlatt wrote: View Post
Now, movie makers and stars are no better than you.
As far as making movies is involved, of course they are. That's their job. Now if we were talking about performing cosmological observations and data analysis, or even just fixing my sink, no they probably aren't better than me. But for writing, directing, and acting in movies, they know what they do, and most fans don't.
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Old September 11 2013, 11:37 AM   #292
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Re: Orci strikes back

Did anyone look at Greenwoods Farewell To Pike? Now Greenwood is talking about the percentage of hardcore fans who don't like the way the franchise is going.

I hope he's not basing that on the poll of a hundred people at the Vegas Convention or those guys baiting Orci on twitter.
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Old September 11 2013, 02:34 PM   #293
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Re: Orci strikes back

I have to wonder how Roddenberry would have gotten along with fans on social media, had such a thing existed in the 60s, 70s and 80s. He pretty much basked in the glory of being the guru who enlightened the masses. And the fans ate it up. Social media changes that dynamic.
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Old September 11 2013, 03:07 PM   #294
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Re: Orci strikes back

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
I have to wonder how Roddenberry would have gotten along with fans on social media, had such a thing existed in the 60s, 70s and 80s.
He probably would have had sex with a lot of them. That seemed to be his thing.
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Old September 11 2013, 04:52 PM   #295
thumbtack
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Re: Orci strikes back

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
JWPlatt wrote: View Post
The internet as a basis is a democratic thing where everyone gets a voice (whether anyone is listening or not) or is at least an equal.
This is, obviously, false.
And he keeps insisting (at least where Trek is concerned) that the minority opinion is the one that needs to be obeyed. Not exactly egalitarian.


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Old September 11 2013, 04:57 PM   #296
suarezguy
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Re: Orci strikes back

J. Allen wrote: View Post
By which time self sighed and said, "So what you're saying is they forgot about all the stupid shit from the series and the movies that completely and utterly belied any sense of intellectualism and reason and instead groped for a cheap laugh or dramatic sting filled with overwrought dialogue and plodding storyline all in the name of self serving, self important, high concept dross."
*Shrug* I didn't think most of 24th century Trek was overwrought, plodding, self-serving or self-important. It was interesting how good the stories were with the conflict among the crew often minimal, getting involved in new societies even within short time periods and also how some (perhaps a few too many) episodes were indeed one-sided views but others acknowledged that the moral dilemmas weren't simple or easy.

One of my criticisms against the new films is that, his tactical decision to use Khan aside (maybe), Kirk is portrayed as always being right, rarely internally conflicted and has changed little while Spock is portrayed as growing by becoming more like him and accepting of his style.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
What exactly is "TNG level of quality"? Trite morals
I don't think morals can get much triter than "go with your instincts," "follow the person with who most goes with his instincts" or "it's OK for some people to break the rules."
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Old September 11 2013, 05:02 PM   #297
M'Sharak
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Re: Orci strikes back

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Did anyone look at Greenwoods Farewell To Pike? Now Greenwood is talking about the percentage of hardcore fans who don't like the way the franchise is going.

I hope he's not basing that on the poll of a hundred people at the Vegas Convention or those guys baiting Orci on twitter.
I'd seen the title over in the sidebar but hadn't read the article until just now. My impression is that Greenwood's take on it is pretty reasonable, but he's struck me all along as being reasonable and as having a fairly realistic perspective on the business and fandom:
Greenwood article wrote:
Although Star Trek into Darkness did well at the box office, some fans were not happy with the movie. Greenwood dismissed the criticism of this group. [There was a] disaffection of the hardcore fans, and Im not really sure what the percentage of hardcore fans who wanted something different really is, he said. I think people can focus on that, but I think by and large fans of the franchise were happy with it.
He does, however, admit his viewpoint on this might be slightly biased:
article wrote:
Greenwood certainly was. I thought it was great, he said. Im so part of it that its very difficult for me to be objective. Im so connected with the people who did it and I know the phenomenal amount of work that into it. So Im predisposed to liking itand I do.
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Old September 11 2013, 05:14 PM   #298
Hober Mallow
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Re: Orci strikes back

BillJ wrote: View Post
JWPlatt wrote: View Post
I actually liked Orci's response to this: we listen and then we decide. Scott and Lindelof decided badly and it didn't appear they listened much at all.
All I know is that Roddenberry said if he listened to fans, Star Trek would be shit. Based on some fan ideas I've seen, I tend to agree.
I completely agree. The ideas in the "Future of Trek" forum are painful to read. But that doesn't mean the new films are any good.
Ovation wrote: View Post
Where do "fans" get off thinking their so entitled anyway? That they should be "listened to"? Artists put something out--they hope it will be well received. Audiences hope that what they spend money on for artistic appreciation will be pleasing to them in some way. But neither is "entitled" to anything other than the right to put the artistic endeavour out to the public on the one hand, and expressing an opinion as to its quality on the other.
Okay... so where's the problem? That's exactly what's happening. Abrams and co. put out their work and the fans are expressing their opinions, both positive and negative.
JWPlatt wrote: View Post
I agree that "artists are under no obligation to 'listen to the fans.' And I would write the same post knowing I agree with you. I assume then that you disagree with Orci trying to listen to fans. If they want our loyalty, the reality is they are going to have to take our sensibilities into account. To know us they will have to listen to us. Startups (new businesses or franchises) don't have to do that because that's the nature of brilliant innovation - there's someone with their own vision. But once they're successful and popular and want to retain their clientele, they have to listen. But we are under no obligation to like it and not post about our dissatisfaction.
Exactly. Talk about entitlement. Some fans think the creators are entitled to the blind acceptance of their work by the fans.
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Just because you yell the loudest doesn't make you either right or entitled to jack shit. A movie might be popular and critically loved, but if it doesn't make money then it's a waste of time. Movies are a business, and any studio that is more worried about what fans want or a bunch of entitled fans whining cause their precious canon got trashed needs to get out of the business; that sort of stuff is what fan films are for.
It's possible not to give a shit about canon but still not like the Abrams films.
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Old September 11 2013, 05:23 PM   #299
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Re: Orci strikes back

suarezguy wrote: View Post
One of my criticisms against the new films is that, his tactical decision to use Khan aside (maybe), Kirk is portrayed as always being right, rarely internally conflicted and has changed little while Spock is portrayed as growing by becoming more like him and accepting of his style.
Fair enough. But to offer a counterpoint, I thought Kirk was shown to be dead wrong many times in the film. 1. Reckless endangerment of the Enterprise and her crew even if the goal is noble. 2. Blatant disregard for policy. 3. Naively believing at the start of the movie that he deserved the five-year mission. 4. Falling prey to Marcus: "I'm Sorry." 5. Believing that everything will turn out alright in the end because he's Jim Kirk and he doesn't believe in no-win scenarios. Yet, he faces a real no-win scenario. He has to die to save the ship. So, he's wrong many times in the movie. And his realization at the end of the movie is that he's not always right, and he's surrounded by good people that he should listen too. (Think he'll ever blow off Scotty's opinion again?)

Will the wiser for it all Jim Kirk still try to save all endangered pre-warp civilizations he come across during his five year mission? Certainly. That sense of moral obligation is innate within him. Will he do it in the same careless manner as he did on Nibiru? Of course not. Will he stand up and be accountable for doing these things? Yes, and his explanations will stick (just as they did in TOS) even if they enter gray areas of policy.
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Old September 11 2013, 05:41 PM   #300
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Re: Orci strikes back

Franklin wrote: View Post

Fair enough. But to offer a counterpoint, I thought Kirk was shown to be dead wrong many times in the film. 1. Reckless endangerment of the Enterprise and her crew even if the goal is noble. 2. Blatant disregard for policy. 3. Naively believing at the start of the movie that he deserved the five-year mission. 4. Falling prey to Marcus: "I'm Sorry." 5. Believing that everything will turn out alright in the end because he's Jim Kirk and he doesn't believe in no-win scenarios. Yet, he faces a real no-win scenario. He has to die to save the ship. So, he's wrong many times in the movie. And his realization at the end of the movie is that he's not always right, and he's surrounded by good people that he should listen too. (Think he'll ever blow off Scotty's opinion again?)

Will the wiser for it all Jim Kirk still try to save all endangered pre-warp civilizations he come across during his five year mission? Certainly. That sense of moral obligation is innate within him. Will he do it in the same careless manner as he did on Nibiru? Of course not. Will he stand up and be accountable for doing these things? Yes, and his explanations will stick (just as they did in TOS) even if they enter gray areas of policy.
Great post.
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