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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Future of Trek

Future of Trek Discussion of future Trek projects.

View Poll Results: Do fans want the prime timeline back?
I'm a fan and I want the Prime timeline back. 196 56.32%
I'm a fan and I don't want the Prime timeline back. 57 16.38%
I'm a fan and wouldn't mind if it came back. 38 10.92%
I don't care, just give me Trek! 51 14.66%
I don't know. 6 1.72%
Voters: 348. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 5 2013, 09:40 PM   #736
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Cromwell wrote: View Post

If the second reboot film was a retread/remake/reboot/rip-off of the second original film then why should I have faith that it's going anywhere?
Because it's not. The "retread" argument has been wildly overstated by the film's critics.

It's no more a "retread" of THE WRATH OF KHAN than THE DARK KNIGHT is a just a retread of BATMAN (1989) because they both feature the Joker . . . .
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Old December 5 2013, 11:05 PM   #737
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Cromwell wrote: View Post

If the second reboot film was a retread/remake/reboot/rip-off of the second original film then why should I have faith that it's going anywhere?
Because it's not. The "retread" argument has been wildly overstated by the film's critics.

It's no more a "retread" of THE WRATH OF KHAN than THE DARK KNIGHT is a just a retread of BATMAN (1989) because they both feature the Joker . . . .




It's like my brother and I trying to do something original with Star Trek figurines when I was 10. The Dark Knight is completely, and unapologetically different from the Tim Burton movies.
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Old December 5 2013, 11:12 PM   #738
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Now show us how the rest of the two movies are identical.
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Old December 5 2013, 11:16 PM   #739
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Now show us how the rest of the two movies are identical.
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Old December 5 2013, 11:21 PM   #740
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

And that demonstrates that the movies are identical how exactly?
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Old December 5 2013, 11:22 PM   #741
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.


Go look at the Wrath of Khan death scene again. And watch Star Trek III again.
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Old December 5 2013, 11:24 PM   #742
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Let's assume for the sake of brevity than I'm familiar with TWOK and TSFS. What's your point?
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Old December 5 2013, 11:25 PM   #743
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Harvey wrote: View Post
And that demonstrates that the movies are identical how exactly?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/plagiarize
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Old December 5 2013, 11:27 PM   #744
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

And where's the corresponding bit where Spock phoned his older self in Wrath of Khan? These don't make for a rip off. Show me Admiral Marcus' plot to start a war with the Klingons, or Khan being manipulated by Starfleet. Show me the Genesis device in ID or Khan's beef with Kirk. You know, how the actual stories of both films are the same.

It's like posting a side by side clip and saying the ninth season of Smallville is a blatant Superman II rip-off because Zod says "Kneel before Zod!" in both.
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Old December 5 2013, 11:28 PM   #745
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Again, what's your point? Can you articulate an argument that addresses King Daniel's remark -- in your own words?
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Old December 5 2013, 11:29 PM   #746
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Harvey wrote: View Post
And that demonstrates that the movies are identical how exactly?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/plagiarize
I've been a fan since 1975, watched it all numerous times and still don't get the argument that Into Darkness is a carbon-copy of The Wrath of Khan.

Guess I'm stupid or sheeple or something?
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Old December 5 2013, 11:32 PM   #747
HaventGotALife
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Harvey wrote: View Post
Let's assume for the sake of brevity than I'm familiar with TWOK and TSFS. What's your point?
The point is that they lifted full scenes, famous lines from Star Trek movies to make this. Because they felt a need to do Khan rather than take the time to come up with something original (re: they consult or hold hostage a person from another planet). Because the conflict of "needs of the many" versus "the rules" is lifted straight from Star Trek II and III.

Because Carol Marcus is introduced in a story that features Khan. Because Khan is still seeking revenge and claiming he is superior.

The Joker stories are not, in any way, the same. You could describe the plot of TDK and never know it's a Batman movie if you had seen only Batman.

The themes. The lines. The characters and the fact they show up at the same time. The same situations dealing with life and death and Spock and Kirk viewing the world differently.

Those are some of my points. I was having a sense of humor with other posts.
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Old December 5 2013, 11:47 PM   #748
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
And where's the corresponding bit where Spock phoned his older self in Wrath of Khan? These don't make for a rip off. Show me Admiral Marcus' plot to start a war with the Klingons, or Khan being manipulated by Starfleet. Show me the Genesis device in ID or Khan's beef with Kirk. You know, how the actual stories of both films are the same.

It's like posting a side by side clip and saying the ninth season of Smallville is a blatant Superman II rip-off because Zod says "Kneel before Zod!" in both.
Warfare was a theme in Star Trek II. It was showing that technology and scientific achievements can outpace our morality and make it very efficient. What is the Vengeance but a piece of war technology that Khan will use to conquer the galaxy?

That's where Genesis is. No, the plots are not the same. But the themes, the dialogue, the situations that show the familiar characteristics of the characters, all are the same. They made too many "nods." It's not overblown. It's exactly what this movie was. I have said otherwise, but upon watching it again, they finally re-did Khan.
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Old December 5 2013, 11:55 PM   #749
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Yes, because STiD was all about Khan being obsessed with revenge on Kirk because Kirk marooned him on Ceti Alpha V years ago, causing Marla McIvers to be horribly killed by a vicious Ceti Eel. And because STiD was all about a middle-aged Kirk coping with a mid-life crisis and coming face to face with the son he never knew. And did I miss the part where Kirk stumbled onto the Botany Bay and Khan seduced Marla? And who played Saavik in STiD again? Or David Marcus?

And, of course, my favorite parts of WRATH OF KHAN are the firefight on the Klingon homeworld, the terrorist attack on Starfleet HQ, the assassination of Christopher Pike, and the evil Starfleet admiral conspiring to start a war with the Klingon Empire. And Scotty sneaking aboard a top-secret Federation warship, of course. I can't believe how STiD ripped all those scenes off!

A couple of (admittedly unsubtle) homages do not a "retread" make, not when the plots of the two movies are totally different.

Edit: And I would argue that WoK wasn't about "war" at all. It was about revenge and the past coming back to haunt you and regrets and sacrifices and so on. Yeah, presumably Khan would have caused trouble with the Genesis Device once he got his revenge, but the movie really wasn't about saving the Federation from Khan or any upcoming war with the Federation. It was more of a personal drama.

STiD, on the other hand, is very much about war and terrorism and conspiracies--and not at all about Kirk confronting his own past.
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Old December 5 2013, 11:57 PM   #750
HaventGotALife
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Yes,because STiD was all about Khan being obsessed with revenge on Kirk because Kirk marooned him on Ceti Alpha V years ago, causing Marla McIvers to be horribly killed by a vicious Ceti Eel. And because STiD was all about a middle-aged Kirk coping with a mid-life crisis and coming face to face with the son he never knew. And did I miss the part where Kirk stumbled onto the Botany Bay and Khan seduced Marla? And who played Saavik in STiD again? Or David Marcus?

And, of course, my favorite parts of WRATH OF KHAN are the firefight on the Klingon homeworld, the terrorist attack on Starfleet HQ, the assassination of Christopher Pike, and the evil Starfleet admiral conspiring to start a war with the Klingon Empire. And Scotty sneaking aboard a top-secret Federation warship, of course. I can't believe how STiD ripped all those scenes off!

A couple of (admittedly unsubtle) homages do not a "retread" make, not when the plots of the two movies are totally different.
If they did a shot-for-shot re-make with a 150 million dollar budget, only then would you see the similarities. Of course, that would simply be "an homage" and a "needed update." They ripped off II and III.
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