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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Future of Trek

Future of Trek Discussion of future Trek projects.

View Poll Results: Do fans want the prime timeline back?
I'm a fan and I want the Prime timeline back. 211 56.87%
I'm a fan and I don't want the Prime timeline back. 61 16.44%
I'm a fan and wouldn't mind if it came back. 39 10.51%
I don't care, just give me Trek! 53 14.29%
I don't know. 7 1.89%
Voters: 371. You may not vote on this poll

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Old October 5 2013, 04:38 PM   #331
Nerys Myk
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
You must hate Spock then, who on two occasions falsified orders to follow a personal agenda. Not to mention trying to kill his CO on at least two occasions! Why is he still in Starfleet?
I'm not sure exactly which examples you're talking about, but I don't remember any time when Spock disobeyed orders and then tried to hide it after the fact to avoid taking responsibility. Two other things that are relevant here: Spock eventually becomes a Captain, but is never shown as having a command of his own, and in regards to 'Amok Time', he was under the influence of a seriously mind altering biological process. You might as well hold everyone responsible for their responses to the Psi 2000 virus...

I wonder if Kirk told Starfleet he disobeyed orders in "Amok Time"? Or did he just pretend he got the revised orders and then proceeded to Vulcan? He also agreed to hide Cochrane's where abouts and the circumstances of Hedford's death.
Allowing Cochrane to live in peace is hardly the same as a captain trying to sweep his own flouting of all the rules under the rug.
It's never going to be an exact parallel. Your insistence that it must be casts doubts on your desire to have an honest discussion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the topic was falsifying reports. My examples show that Kirk did that on a couple of occasions. But now they don't count because his heart was in the right place.

Spock falsified orders in "Amok Time" and Kirk then compounded that disobeying Komack's orders by going to Vulcan. By the end of the episode Komack gives the okay to proceed to Vulcan, but the Enterprise is already there. Did Kirk fess up to that?

Spock was in Command of the Enterprise at the beginning of TWOK. Yes it was a training vessel, but he was the Captain.
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Old October 5 2013, 05:00 PM   #332
BillJ
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the topic was falsifying reports. My examples show that Kirk did that on a couple of occasions. But now they don't count because his heart was in the right place.
We also know that Riker falsified reports and lied to a board of inquiry and didn't fess up to it until years later when he got caught. (See: The Pegasus).

It comes down to some liking a particular version of Trek and excusing their flaws but trying to nail Abrams films for the same flaws. I wish some would simply admit it's about the Messenger and not the flaws themselves.
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Old October 5 2013, 05:33 PM   #333
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post

Spock falsified orders in "Amok Time" and Kirk then compounded that disobeying Komack's orders by going to Vulcan. By the end of the episode Komack gives the okay to proceed to Vulcan, but the Enterprise is already there. Did Kirk fess up to that?
Oh, that's small potatoes compared to Spock hijacking the Enterprise in "The Menagerie." And let's not forget him using a nerve pinch on some poor security guy in order to take an unauthorized spacewalk in TMP, in which he had a secret agenda to make contact with V'Ger for pretty much the entire movie . . .
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Old October 5 2013, 05:46 PM   #334
bbjeg
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

^ You beat me to "The Menagerie."
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Old October 5 2013, 05:51 PM   #335
JarodRussell
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Am I the only one who sees a difference between:

a) doing something, being honest about it and accepting the consequences

and

b) doing something and lying about it to avoid the consequences

?
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Old October 5 2013, 05:57 PM   #336
BillJ
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Am I the only one who sees a difference between:

a) doing something, being honest about it and accepting the consequences

and

b) doing something and lying about it to avoid the consequences

?
I don't know? Ask Will Riker?
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Old October 5 2013, 06:08 PM   #337
Nerys Myk
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

The Conscience of the King contains some dodgy moves by Kirk. He calls in a favor to strand the Karidian Company so he can transport them. He also alter his ship's course to accommodate them. He romances Karidian's daughter. All part of his plan to expose Karidian as Kodos.

Of course earlier in the episode he chastises Leighton for doing the same thing.

KIRK: You said you discovered a new food concentrate. What am I supposed to put in my log, that you lied? That you diverted a starship with false information? You're not only in trouble, you've put me in trouble, too.
KIRK: And I have to get back to my ship and figure out how I'm going to enter all this in my log. Tom. Martha.
Hmmmm, what did he enter in his log? Would he have mentioned Leighton's lie?
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Old October 5 2013, 06:13 PM   #338
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

"Listen, kiddo, Jim Kirk was many things, but he was never a Boy Scout!" - Carol Marcus, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan

"I reprogrammed the simulation so it was possible to rescue the ship." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan

"The word ...is no. I am therefore going anyway." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock

"As you wish. ...The charges and specifications are. Conspiracy. Assault on Federation Officers. Theft of Federation Property, namely the Starship Enterprise. Sabotage of the U.S.S. Excelsior, Wilful destruction of Federation Property, specifically the aforementioned U.S.S. Enterprise. And finally, disobeying direct orders of the Starfleet Commander. ...Admiral Kirk, how do you plead?" - Federation President, Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home

"If you continue to complain, from deeper in your canon, there are things even more unpleasant". - Me, with special assist from The Cage
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Old October 5 2013, 09:35 PM   #339
grendelsbayne
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Geoff Peterson wrote: View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the topic was falsifying reports. My examples show that Kirk did that on a couple of occasions. But now they don't count because his heart was in the right place.
You're wrong. The topic I was speaking of was not falsifying reports, it was Kirk's moral integrity.

Spock falsified orders in "Amok Time" and Kirk then compounded that disobeying Komack's orders by going to Vulcan. By the end of the episode Komack gives the okay to proceed to Vulcan, but the Enterprise is already there. Did Kirk fess up to that?
I don't know. Do you know that he lied to Starfleet about it in his official report?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Am I the only one who sees a difference between:

a) doing something, being honest about it and accepting the consequences

and

b) doing something and lying about it to avoid the consequences

?
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Not Kirk breaking the rules, but Kirk considering himself entirely above the rules. Which is, incidentally, exactly what Pike says about him in ID, as well...
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Old October 5 2013, 09:37 PM   #340
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

DonIago wrote: View Post
Well, if Trek '09 had been the abomination that some people seem to consider it to be...

But as far as the general public was concerned it wasn't, and as far as the Trek fanbase is concerned, it's my opinion they should be grateful that something happened to revive interest in the franchise even if they didn't care for the precise form that it took.
Well put! I myself am 19 and would have never watched TOS unless Trek had been introduced to me through the Abrams movies. Now, I far prefer TOS, but I am grateful that my generation was successfully introduced to Trek. I think a new incarnation of the Prime timeline would do just as well, especially for people who are new to the series like I was.
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Old October 5 2013, 09:43 PM   #341
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Not Kirk breaking the rules, but Kirk considering himself entirely above the rules. Which is, incidentally, exactly what Pike says about him in ID, as well...
A young man who thinks he is above the rules. Nope. Have never ran into that before in this lifetime. Never. Never. Never.
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Old October 5 2013, 09:45 PM   #342
BillJ
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

Rayna wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
Well, if Trek '09 had been the abomination that some people seem to consider it to be...

But as far as the general public was concerned it wasn't, and as far as the Trek fanbase is concerned, it's my opinion they should be grateful that something happened to revive interest in the franchise even if they didn't care for the precise form that it took.
Well put! I myself am 19 and would have never watched TOS unless Trek had been introduced to me through the Abrams movies. Now, I far prefer TOS, but I am grateful that my generation was successfully introduced to Trek. I think a new incarnation of the Prime timeline would do just as well, especially for people who are new to the series like I was.
Welcome to the funny farm!
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Old October 5 2013, 09:56 PM   #343
grendelsbayne
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

BillJ wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Not Kirk breaking the rules, but Kirk considering himself entirely above the rules. Which is, incidentally, exactly what Pike says about him in ID, as well...
A young man who thinks he is above the rules. Nope. Have never ran into that before in this lifetime. Never. Never. Never.
Yep, so many of those running around, I guess we'd better just start giving them Starships. Because I would want the morons I see wandering around the neighborhood in charge of one of the most powerful weapons in existance.
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Old October 5 2013, 10:01 PM   #344
BillJ
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Yep, so many of those running around, I guess we'd better just start giving them Starships. Because I would want the morons I see wandering around the neighborhood in charge of one of the most powerful weapons in existance.
Well, you're deliberately ignoring what the film tells us about Jim Kirk. A man who is considered a genius and completed the Academy in three years. Plus, we have no idea of what type of experience he gained from ages 18-22 before joining the Academy.

But none of those facts fit with your gripe...
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Old October 5 2013, 10:07 PM   #345
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back? Part 2: Poll edition.

BillJ wrote: View Post
grendelsbayne wrote: View Post
Yep, so many of those running around, I guess we'd better just start giving them Starships. Because I would want the morons I see wandering around the neighborhood in charge of one of the most powerful weapons in existance.
Well, you're deliberately ignoring what the film tells us about Jim Kirk. A man who is considered a genius and completed the Academy in three years. Plus, we have no idea of what type of experience he gained from ages 18-22 before joining the Academy.

But none of those facts fit with your gripe...
No, no, he isn't, in fact, a moron. I know. But as long as he considers himself above everyone else, he does not deserve command. As far as i'm concerned, that's pretty much the bottom line. That and the fact that someone at Starfleet should've had enough brains to realize that before he was promoted in the first place.
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