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Sports and Fitness It's football, not soccer.

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Old February 4 2014, 09:08 PM   #976
gblews
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Re: NFL Discussion - 2013 Season

Timby wrote: View Post
gblews wrote: View Post
Very good quarterback, just not special.
Manning is:

- 2nd in career passing yards
- 1st in career playoff passing yards
- 2nd in career touchdowns
- 4th in career playoff touchdowns
- 2nd in career passer rating
- 2nd in career sack percentage

And that's all-time, not just active quarterbacks. On what planet is that "very good, just not special?"
"Earth", where stats don't equal Super Bowl wins.

Caligula wrote: View Post
gblews wrote: View Post
Peyton is simply not a quarterback who can be in the same conversation with the Montanas, Staubachs, Bradshaws, Farves, Manning's, Bradys, players who were able to make something out of nothing in their team's biggest game.
Not to nitpick... BUT... it's Favre, not Farve.

If Peyton doesn't belong in that group, neither does Favre. They have the same amount of Super Bowl titles.
My mistake, I though Farve had more than one SB win.

If neither of them belongs, does Peyton's brother Eli? He has one more Super Bowl title, and both WERE won in clutch situations, but he's far less consistent than any of those other names and has had far more BAD games than brother Peyton (like the nine that the Giants lost this season, for instance). How about Staubach? He lost just as many Super Bowls as Peyton did, both to Pittsburgh. Tom Brady has lost two as well, both to Eli's N.Y. Giants.
Eli has been in two Super Bowls and has won both and looked great doing it (not that that matters much).

Staubach won at least two Super Bowls. He was one of those quarterbacks who could put a team on his back and carry them to vicory at the highest levels and at the least most likely time. HE is the poster child for "special".
Peyton is no Joe Montana and has never had as complete an offense as Terry Bradshaw enjoyed, nor as brilliant a head coach as Tom Brady has been privileged with, but he's done enough in his career to be mentioned among the all-time greats.
Yes, I put him up there with guys like Fran Tarkenton, Dad Archie, Dan Marino, stats hogs who lacked that special ingredient needed to take his team, inspire his team to become something better than they thought they were. Okay, a tick above those guys because Peyton was in 3 SB's and won one.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike Peyton and I was rooting FOR the Hawks, not AGAINST Manning. I kind of bought into the hype this season too, but I think Peyton showed that despite another great regular season, he essentially is the same guy we have seen for the last several years.
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Old February 4 2014, 11:15 PM   #977
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Re: NFL Discussion - 2013 Season

gblews wrote: View Post
Timby wrote: View Post
gblews wrote: View Post
Very good quarterback, just not special.
Manning is:

- 2nd in career passing yards
- 1st in career playoff passing yards
- 2nd in career touchdowns
- 4th in career playoff touchdowns
- 2nd in career passer rating
- 2nd in career sack percentage

And that's all-time, not just active quarterbacks. On what planet is that "very good, just not special?"
"Earth", where stats don't equal Super Bowl wins.
The odds of a football team (note the operative word here, team) making it to a Super Bowl, let alone winning one, are astronomical. Even if you have the greatest offense in history, like the Broncos did this season, you still need to be incredibly lucky and have a zillion things fall in your favor. Beyond that, while Peyton had a rough night (although a 70 percent completion percentage is rather impressive considering the defense had his number all night long), there were 51 other guys on that team who didn't do their jobs, either. Manning didn't cause the offensive line, the linebackers, the secondary and the special teams to completely shit the bed.

If we're judging a quarterback's value on rings, then that means Trent Dilfer was a better quarterback than Dan Marino, and that's a world I don't want to live in.
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Old February 4 2014, 11:51 PM   #978
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Re: NFL Discussion - 2013 Season

Timby wrote: View Post
If we're judging a quarterback's value on rings, then that means Trent Dilfer was a better quarterback than Dan Marino, and that's a world I don't want to live in.
Wholeheartedly agree.

Dan Marino, not one of but THE greatest QB who never got to hoist a Vince Lombardi trophy. Not to mention the last Dolphins QB to even put the franchise in the position to win one.
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Old February 5 2014, 12:03 AM   #979
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Re: NFL Discussion - 2013 Season

Don't forget Johnny Unitas.
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Old February 5 2014, 12:23 AM   #980
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Re: NFL Discussion - 2013 Season

Caligula wrote: View Post
gblews wrote: View Post
Peyton is simply not a quarterback who can be in the same conversation with the Montanas, Staubachs, Bradshaws, Farves, Manning's, Bradys, players who were able to make something out of nothing in their team's biggest game.
Not to nitpick... BUT... it's Favre, not Farve.

If Peyton doesn't belong in that group, neither does Favre. They have the same amount of Super Bowl titles. Favre threw FAR more interceptions, and the only reason he doesn't have more playoff losses than Peyton is because Brett couldn't get the Packers/Jets/Vikings to the playoffs as often as Peyton has with the Colts/Broncos.

If neither of them belongs, does Peyton's brother Eli? He has one more Super Bowl title, and both WERE won in clutch situations, but he's far less consistent than any of those other names and has had far more BAD games than brother Peyton (like the nine that the Giants lost this season, for instance). How about Staubach? He lost just as many Super Bowls as Peyton did, both to Pittsburgh. Tom Brady has lost two as well, both to Eli's N.Y. Giants.

Peyton is no Joe Montana and has never had as complete an offense as Terry Bradshaw enjoyed, nor as brilliant a head coach as Tom Brady has been privileged with, but he's done enough in his career to be mentioned among the all-time greats.
Dan Marino never won a Superbowl, and I don't see anybody downgrading his achievements.
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Old February 5 2014, 01:04 AM   #981
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Re: NFL Discussion - 2013 Season

Timby wrote: View Post
gblews wrote: View Post
Timby wrote: View Post

Manning is:

- 2nd in career passing yards
- 1st in career playoff passing yards
- 2nd in career touchdowns
- 4th in career playoff touchdowns
- 2nd in career passer rating
- 2nd in career sack percentage

And that's all-time, not just active quarterbacks. On what planet is that "very good, just not special?"
"Earth", where stats don't equal Super Bowl wins.
The odds of a football team (note the operative word here, team) making it to a Super Bowl, let alone winning one, are astronomical. Even if you have the greatest offense in history, like the Broncos did this season, you still need to be incredibly lucky and have a zillion things fall in your favor. Beyond that, while Peyton had a rough night (although a 70 percent completion percentage is rather impressive
"Gimmies", thats what my college coach used to call what Peyton was given to get that gaudy completion percentage. Part of the Seahwk's gameplan was to allow Manning to have free range in those short zones thereby effectively "botlling" up the Denver offense. More empty stats to be drooled over while the meat got away.

And yes, I agree with you that it takes a team effort and some luck to win a SB, but my point is that some quarterbacks need more of both than others. Peyton can win another SB but if he does it will not likely be without some massive help from a REALLY good running back and a much improved offensive line. To me, that doesn't jibe with a player who is (supposedly) the greatest ever at that position.

Just think what it might have done for his team if Peyton had been able to spin away from the rush a few times, get the Hawks pass rushers a bit back on their heels, and get his team into the end zone after they were down 15-0 in the second quarter. Might have been a different ballgame. At least his team might not have given up in the third quarter, even after Harvin's runback.

Manning deserves a seat at a table full of "elite" quarterbacks, but when the "elite" of the elite, the guys who have won mulitiple titles, inspired their teams beyond where they thought they could go (namely to championships multiple times), get up and leave for the VIP lounge, Peyton, IMO, should stay seated.
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Old February 5 2014, 01:07 AM   #982
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Re: NFL Discussion - 2013 Season

So because he won multiple Super Bowls, Jim "Career 67.5 passer rating" Plunkett was a better quarterback than Peyton Manning. Got it.
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Old February 5 2014, 01:09 AM   #983
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Re: NFL Discussion - 2013 Season

Well, from what the Seahawks are saying, Manning couldn't do that because the Seahawk's defense figured out his hand signals and play calling sometime in the first quarter, and he and the Denver coaching staff apparently never realized he'd been "hacked".
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Old February 5 2014, 01:16 AM   #984
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Re: NFL Discussion - 2013 Season

Yeah, a ton of the credit has to go to the Seattle defense -- that was a performance on par with the '85 Bears and the 2000 Ravens.
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Old February 5 2014, 02:51 AM   #985
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Re: NFL Discussion - 2013 Season

gblews wrote: View Post
Timby wrote: View Post
gblews wrote: View Post
"Earth", where stats don't equal Super Bowl wins.
The odds of a football team (note the operative word here, team) making it to a Super Bowl, let alone winning one, are astronomical. Even if you have the greatest offense in history, like the Broncos did this season, you still need to be incredibly lucky and have a zillion things fall in your favor. Beyond that, while Peyton had a rough night (although a 70 percent completion percentage is rather impressive
"Gimmies", thats what my college coach used to call what Peyton was given to get that gaudy completion percentage. Part of the Seahwk's gameplan was to allow Manning to have free range in those short zones thereby effectively "botlling" up the Denver offense. More empty stats to be drooled over while the meat got away.
I wouldn't even necessarily go so far as to say that Seattle's gameplan was to let Manning have free reign of the short zone- that's just all Manning had time to do! If he tried to let anything develop beyond a screen or short route, he would get destroyed by the rushing defenders.
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Old February 5 2014, 03:15 AM   #986
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Re: NFL Discussion - 2013 Season

Just seems to me that if the narrative when Peyton is winning is that he's a genius field general who's reading everything at the line, making his own adjustments, and the babbling nonsense isn't nonsense but actually means something, then by the same token he's gotta own a huge chunk of the blame pie when he's NOT picking apart the other team. Making bad play calls, bad reads, moving into the wrong protection schemes, etc.

He's either controlling all these things or he's not. Can't praise him on the good nights and fall back on 'it's a team game, not his fault' when he loses...
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Old February 5 2014, 04:36 AM   #987
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Re: NFL Discussion - 2013 Season

Or one could simply say that on that day the better team figured him out and won. Easy's as that. The game is far more a team game than perhaps any other professional team sports, so there will be leeway in either direction. Some of his mistakes in this game were clearly his fault. Some were nothing more than a good play by the Seattle D. I doubt that very many people at least in this discussion are giving Manning a free pass.

Peyton's "legacy" ( I am getting sick of the subject) as one of the greatest is pretty firm when you take into account all factors such as regular season - and post season - as well as team surrounding, diversity of skill set, SB wins, MVP awards, etc. Even longevity. However, as THE greatest ... that's a question that likely can never be definitively answered.
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Old February 5 2014, 07:29 AM   #988
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Re: NFL Discussion - 2013 Season

My god this Manning argument is silly. Obviously an all-time great, and obviously better than Tom Brady. As for reads and protection adjustments... did you even watch the game? Most of his reads seemed fine. There's not much of an adjustment for when your OL is getting obliterated despite the defense dropping 7 into coverage on every play. It's not like he was missing blitzes and hot reads. It's not like his run game was effective.

Manning didn't play perfectly, not even close, but even if he did the Broncos lose that game by 3-4 touchdowns instead of five.
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Old February 5 2014, 08:18 PM   #989
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Re: NFL Discussion - 2013 Season

Scout101 wrote: View Post
Just seems to me that if the narrative when Peyton is winning is that he's a genius field general who's reading everything at the line, making his own adjustments, and the babbling nonsense isn't nonsense but actually means something, then by the same token he's gotta own a huge chunk of the blame pie when he's NOT picking apart the other team. Making bad play calls, bad reads, moving into the wrong protection schemes, etc.

He's either controlling all these things or he's not. Can't praise him on the good nights and fall back on 'it's a team game, not his fault' when he loses...
I'm really glad Peyton isn't publicly doing what some of his his supporters here are; that is, blaming his teammates for the loss and taking no responsibility himself.
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Old February 5 2014, 10:32 PM   #990
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Re: NFL Discussion - 2013 Season

Timby wrote: View Post
So because he won multiple Super Bowls, Jim "Career 67.5 passer rating" Plunkett was a better quarterback than Peyton Manning. Got it.
I'm not going to say that Plunkett was a better quarterback, but if I had to win ONE game and he and Peyton were my only choices at quarterback...I'd take Plunkett without a moment's hesitation. In fact, I'de take Montana, Bradshaw, Staubach, Eli, and some others before Peyton in the same situation.

Full disclosure though, I am a Raiders fan and watched this warrior go into battle many times when given little to no chance to prevail and watched him do just that at the highest levels.
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