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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old September 5 2013, 09:59 PM   #31
Sran
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

jpv2000 wrote: View Post
He couldn't believe that the designers had ignored his opinion and installed it anyway.
Interesting. I've never read the novel, so I didn't know that Kirk had made that recommendation. I only know what's on screen- that Kirk didn't know about the change but Decker's knowledge of the ship saved it from crashing into the asteroid.

As an aside, I hope Timo sees this. I enjoy his rants about Kirk's leadership by arrogance approach from TMP.

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Old September 5 2013, 10:56 PM   #32
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

Haha...I've enjoyed reading those, too.
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Old September 6 2013, 05:10 PM   #33
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

austen_pierce wrote: View Post
Aside from the obvious, that the refit looks better on the big screen, why would a ship nearly twenty years old get such an extensive makeover as opposed to being demolished and replaced with a fresh vessel?
Not to nitpick, but the real world reason was the fact that a 15 year old, fourteen foot long filming miniature was a bit out of date by the late seventies. Otherwise, why not just save the money and use the same one? An HD version of the original design might have actually looked awesome on the big screen.

Treknologically speaking, to our minds, the changes to the ship are almost impossible to render the ship quantitatively "the same ship" - and indeed Decker and co. seemed to regard her as almost "a new ship entirely." However, it could be that Starfleet finds it easy to do. But that's not all to consider.

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
I've always thought Starfleet ships were somewhat modular. Swap out the sensor suite / warp core / deflector, plug in the new type and off you go. Thus really old space frames like The Excelsior remain viable and in service into the TNG era.
And yet, no Excelsior or Miranda class starship ever changed so dramatically as the Enterprise did. In turn, this may shed some light on the refit itself; we never have seen another one like it.

So, referencing above, I'd say there are four possible iterations.
  1. Refits like this are easy and commonplace, we just happen to only see the Enterprise
  2. Refits like this are easy but not commonplace, with Starfleet preferring to build new ships, and for some reasonthe Enterprise is a special exception
  3. Refits like this are difficult yet commonplace, we just happen to only see the Enterprise
  4. Refits like this are difficult but not commonplace, with Starfleet preferring to build new ships, and for some reason the Enterprise is a special exception.
For my money, evidence points to either 1 or 4. The cynic in me thinks 4. If Starfleet is a real organization, it's not going to be wasteful in how it spends its time and other resources. And again, odds are this all goes out the window by TNG no matter which is the truth, since as I mentioned the Excelsiors and Mirandas do not change so drastically in appearance.

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I've always liked Shane Johnson's idea that it started off as an engine upgrade that spiraled out of control and wound up being a total redesign. The Enterprise wound up being a testbed for new systems and components that were incorporated into other designs such as the Miranda- and Constellation-classes.
Scope creep is a bitch.

Timo wrote: View Post
A fairly obvious reason would be to circumvent the treaty with the Klingons. It's rather inevitable that such a treaty would have clauses on how many ships of a given type the two sides could have, and so forth. Pretending that an essentially all-new ship is a "refit" would no doubt allow Starfleet to exploit a loophole of some sort! Or, refitting could be for real, as Starfleet just plain wouldn't be allowed to build another heavy cruiser from keel up and would just have to make the best of the ships it already had - until the right moment came to break the treaty and start the war. Starfleet would feel much happier about starting the war with refitted rather than unrefitted ships...
I actually haven't heard this exact version put forth before, but this is IMO the best explanation if we assume that refitting a ship is a large degree of effort. This excuse could even make 3 above make sense.

jpv2000 wrote: View Post
Sran wrote: View Post
jpv2000 wrote: View Post
I'm sure he made other suggestions, that he assumed were followed but were not, like the phasers being powered by the warp engines.
I'm not sure what this means. Are you saying that the idea for increasing phaser intensity by routing them through the warp drive was Kirk's idea? If so, why wouldn't he have thought about that while the Enterprise was flying through the wormhole? Decker had to explain to him that the phasers wouldn't work in the event of engine imbalance.
No, the exact opposite actually.

In the novel by GR, once Decker explained why he countermanded Kirk's phaser order. Kirk was shocked since when he had seen that upgrade as an Admiral he had explained the many times a starship would need phasers when the warp drive might be down. And recommended they scrap the idea. He had assumed they would follow his recommendation.

He couldn't believe that the designers had ignored his opinion and installed it anyway.
Intriguing. I've not heard that. Sounds exactly like Kirk, though.
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Old September 6 2013, 05:27 PM   #34
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

Praetor wrote: View Post
And yet, no Excelsior or Miranda class starship ever changed so dramatically as the Enterprise did. In turn, this may shed some light on the refit itself; we never have seen another one like it.
An interesting point. We see the Excelsior-class for the first time in TSFS, again in TUC and GEN, and several times thereafter in TNG. Each of the vessels looks virtually identical to the class prototype on the outside but has an interior consistent with TNG design specifications.

The Miranda-class appeared in TWOK, TVH, and again in TNG. Each of the ships looks like the Reliant, though some are missing the torpedo launcher that runs above the primary hull. But what of the Miranda-class before TWOK? The novels mention that USS Boston was a Miranda-class ship and that Decker served aboard her for four years as executive officer. Was her design like that of Reliant but with nacelles similar to the Enterprise during the five-year mission?

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Old September 6 2013, 05:55 PM   #35
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

Well, the registry of the Reliant and TVH's Saratoga are in the 1800s. All things being equal, if registries are sequential as one might think, this would mean they were built after the Enterprise, although we do not concretely know this to be the case.

There's a fan design for a Surya class "frigate" that is essentially a TOS version of the Miranda, but nothing in canon to support it. It's entirely possible there was a TOS version, and we just never saw it; indeed, according to the "Court Martial" status chart there was at least one ship in the 1800s in service at the time of TOS, so it stands to reason the Reliant might be.

Then again, who's to say the Miranda class wasn't built as we saw the Reliant, and wasn't the testbed for movie-era tech, before the Enterprise refit was attempted?

I think the only conclusion we can concretely draw is that something about the Miranda and Excelsior class (and Oberth for that matter) ensured they were in service for around 75 years.

This would tend to make make one think there could have been refit Consitutions in service too, even though we didn't see one outside Wolf 359 and DS9's "The Sound of Her Voice," both of which reused the TSFS wreckage. If the Excelsior was meant to replace the Constitution, then maybe something along the lines of Timo's treaty stipulations made it advtangous to have an Excelsior rather than a Constitution: one big, more capable ship instead of one smaller, less capable ship. Further, the variants of the Miranda seem to imply a modularity or versatility that we haven't seen in other classes to the same extent.
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Old September 6 2013, 06:02 PM   #36
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

When I was goofing around with an informational Trek website over a decade ago I assumed the Miranda class went through an up grade too



as did the Constellation

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Old September 6 2013, 08:37 PM   #37
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

Heh, those are cool. I'm skeptical about the Constellation, but it's certainly possible, and I still dig it.

Something worth noting about the refit... when the process began for Phase II, the aborted TOS sequel series, in the 70s, Matt Jefferies intended the new Enterprise changes to amount to "power pods and struts only." That is, only the neck, nacelle pylons, and nacelles were fundamentally changed.

Obviously, there were other minor changed, but 75% she was the same ship. When the series turned into TMP, heavier redesigns took place on the part of Mike Minor and Andrew Probert that further distinguished the ship from her original form, indeed making her a truly complete refit.

I'll also throw in there that during the Phase II era, the "struts and nacelles only" version of the ship was to have an engine room with an intermix chamber very similar to what we saw in TMP.
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Old September 7 2013, 04:12 AM   #38
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

I envisioned the prefit Constellation as the last gasp of the old Connie style nacelles (with a hint of the refit style to come). It got it's refit in early 24th Century.
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Old September 7 2013, 04:25 AM   #39
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

It's possible that Enterprise is the only ship to get such a radical refit. Either the "Refit" style of ships were already in service by the time the Enterprise comes home, or she's a new technology testbed and everything after that was built new.

As for the Excelsiors and Mirandas not being refitted: Maybe Starfleet engine tech was relatively unchanged for a few decades. When the Ambassadors entered service it was such a hug leap forward, that the older ships couldn't be upgraded to the new engines.
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Old September 7 2013, 05:08 AM   #40
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

Well the ship was already a legend, from a PR stand point do you want to mothball a legend? or use it for target practice?
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Old September 7 2013, 07:49 AM   #41
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
When I was goofing around with an informational Trek website over a decade ago I assumed the Miranda class went through an up grade too
You're not the only one to think this... some of the Star Trek novelists assumed the same thing. David Mack's Vanguard novel Harbinger had a pre-refit Miranda-class USS Bombay. And I'm not as sure about this one, but I think one of the old DC comics had a similar pre-refit Miranda-class USS Oxford. (Although I don't think the class of the Oxford was identified by name in the comic.)
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Old September 7 2013, 06:43 PM   #42
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

When you compare the pilot Enterprise to the series Enterprise the ship probably had a slight refit or at least an upgrade to the bridge and nacelles.

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Old September 7 2013, 06:47 PM   #43
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
As for the Excelsiors and Mirandas not being refitted: Maybe Starfleet engine tech was relatively unchanged for a few decades. When the Ambassadors entered service it was such a hug leap forward, that the older ships couldn't be upgraded to the new engines.
Interesting notion. I'd long thought the opposite, that the technology had remained so unchanged that it allowed them to remain viable (and that for whatever reason, Starfleet didn't need many/any Constitutions to remain so long.) Your theory may actually make more sense. We never really did see one of the older ships keep up with the newer.

YJAGG wrote: View Post
Well the ship was already a legend, from a PR stand point do you want to mothball a legend? or use it for target practice?
The WWII carrier Enterprise was unceremoniously scrapped, despite being one of only three pre-war carriers to survive and receiving 20 battle stars, more than any other American ship in the war. (In fact, she was the most decorated U.S. ship ever.) She even received a British Admiralty Pennant, the only ship outside the Royal Navy to receive one in the 400 years since its creation. There was desire to turn her into a museum, but the money just wasn't there.

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
\
You're not the only one to think this... some of the Star Trek novelists assumed the same thing. David Mack's Vanguard novel Harbinger had a pre-refit Miranda-class USS Bombay. And I'm not as sure about this one, but I think one of the old DC comics had a similar pre-refit Miranda-class USS Oxford. (Although I don't think the class of the Oxford was identified by name in the comic.)
Ah yes, the Oxford, Kirk's first command. I enjoyed that story arc. I believe Kirk referred to her as a light cruiser.
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Old September 10 2013, 09:55 PM   #44
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Re: TMP Refit - Why?

Timo wrote: View Post
A fairly obvious reason would be to circumvent the treaty with the Klingons. It's rather inevitable that such a treaty would have clauses on how many ships of a given type the two sides could have, and so forth. Pretending that an essentially all-new ship is a "refit" would no doubt allow Starfleet to exploit a loophole of some sort! Or, refitting could be for real, as Starfleet just plain wouldn't be allowed to build another heavy cruiser from keel up and would just have to make the best of the ships it already had - until the right moment came to break the treaty and start the war. Starfleet would feel much happier about starting the war with refitted rather than unrefitted ships...

Timo Saloniemi
This is somewhat similar to what happened with the US Navy after the Washington Treaty was signed between the major naval powers of the time in 1922... Prior to the treaty the US was building and commissioning roughly one new battleship a year, but this treaty but the brakes on that in order to avoid a global naval arms race. The US Navy couldn't build any new battleships (and had to decommission or stop construction on a few), but they could refit existing ones. So, during the late 1920s and the 1930's, they ended up refitting a lot of their older battleships, and many of them ended up with a very different external appearance afterwards. The treaty ended up getting discarded during the buildup to WW2 when it became clear that refitting ships wasn't going to cut it any more because the presumed enemy powers were building bigger and heavier ships.
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