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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old September 11 2013, 12:14 AM   #31
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Re: Did TNG's Early Scope Shrink?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
their desire was to get back to the flavor of TOS where the ship and crew were completely on their own without a Starfleet Command to call for backup,
You know whenever I hear someone describe TOS as "the ship and crew were completely on their own without a Starfleet Command to call for backup" I honestly have to wonder if that person or persons has ever watched TOS, because that was not really the case.

In fact they frequently running into other Starfleet vessels and stations. And if they weren't doing that they were visiting federation member planets and colonies, or had dealings with federation officials.
They thought the whole starship out on his own in unknown space was so interesting they used it for Voyager. Too bad they really didn't do anything with the premise, and it became a warmed over TNG.
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Old September 11 2013, 12:22 AM   #32
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Re: Did TNG's Early Scope Shrink?

^Now we're going in circles. As I already said, it was pressure from UPN that forced them to make it "a warmed over TNG," because more TNG was what UPN wanted. It was the flagship show of the whole network, the foundation of the whole UPN experiment, and so the network execs wanted it to be safe and reliable and not do anything too daring or risky. (Note, by the way, that UPN itself did not last long after it cancelled Enterprise. The network really couldn't survive without Trek anchoring it.)
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Old September 11 2013, 12:42 AM   #33
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Re: Did TNG's Early Scope Shrink?

Christopher wrote: View Post
^Now we're going in circles. As I already said, it was pressure from UPN that forced them to make it "a warmed over TNG," because more TNG was what UPN wanted. It was the flagship show of the whole network, the foundation of the whole UPN experiment, and so the network execs wanted it to be safe and reliable and not do anything too daring or risky.
Yes, lets blame it all on UPN. The writers had nothing to do with VOY's mostly mediocre writing.

There was a time when Gene Roddenberry did TOS which aired on a network, and was able to make it good and memorable. He found a way to work around censors to bring out the better episodes.

Michael Piller had to work around some of Roddenberry's silly mandates to make TNG a better series.

The VOY writers just shrugged and went along with whatever UPN demanded.


(Note, by the way, that UPN itself did not last long after it cancelled Enterprise. The network really couldn't survive without Trek anchoring it.)
The network idea was a failed idea from the start, depending on a franchise that they themselves didn't want to take risks with. Not taking risks mean it stops being interesting.
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Old September 11 2013, 12:56 AM   #34
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Re: Did TNG's Early Scope Shrink?

Dream wrote: View Post
Yes, lets blame it all on UPN. The writers had nothing to do with VOY's mostly mediocre writing.
Few things are ever so simplistic as to have only one cause, which is why looking for someone to "blame" tends to get in the way of true understanding. There's no denying that the network's wishes were a major limiting factor on both VGR and ENT. If the show didn't retain the best writers, that may well be because the network's restrictions were too frustrating for them. We know that Ron Moore bailed after two episodes because he couldn't deal with the limiting creative climate. We've also heard recently that UPN's demands radically altered what ENT's creators wanted it to be (they basically wanted the whole first season to be like the episode "First Flight," building up gradually to the launch of NX-01, and they didn't want transporters or a Temporal Cold War), so it doesn't seem unlikely that VGR would've been subject to similar restrictions.


There was a time when Gene Roddenberry did TOS which aired on a network, and was able to make it good and memorable. He found a way to work around censors to bring out the better episodes.
But he was also severely restricted by the network in a lot of ways. He pushed the envelope as far as he could, but NBC pushed back. TOS had a lot of formula of its own, like the obligatory fistfights in every episode.

The proper comparison here is to syndicated shows like TNG and DS9. DS9 was able to push the envelope and be daring and experimental, while VGR was constrained to formula. And that's at least partly because the syndicated shows had fewer bosses to answer to.


The VOY writers just shrugged and went along with whatever UPN demanded.
You have no basis for assuming that, since we've never really gotten a detailed behind-the-scenes look at the making of the show (except for Stephen Edward Poe's A Vision of the Future: Star Trek: Voyager, which only covered the first season or two). Indeed, maybe the reason we haven't is because the producers were fighting the network and/or the studio fiercely and it just would make things look too bad if the battles were publicized. We just don't know.


The network idea was a failed idea from the start, depending on a franchise that they themselves didn't want to take risks with. Not taking risks mean it stops being interesting.
So... now you're accepting my premise when before you were rejecting it? I'm confused.
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Old September 11 2013, 01:40 AM   #35
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Re: Did TNG's Early Scope Shrink?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Few things are ever so simplistic as to have only one cause, which is why looking for someone to "blame" tends to get in the way of true understanding. There's no denying that the network's wishes were a major limiting factor on both VGR and ENT. If the show didn't retain the best writers, that may well be because the network's restrictions were too frustrating for them. We know that Ron Moore bailed after two episodes because he couldn't deal with the limiting creative climate.
Moore himself has stated the many problems with the VOY producers and writers. The two groups didn't work well at all together. But he never mentions UPN once in this article.

http://www.lcarscom.net/rdm1000118.htm


We've also heard recently that UPN's demands radically altered what ENT's creators wanted it to be (they basically wanted the whole first season to be like the episode "First Flight," building up gradually to the launch of NX-01, and they didn't want transporters or a Temporal Cold War), so it doesn't seem unlikely that VGR would've been subject to similar restrictions.
I don't think that would have worked. It would have been different, but taking an ENTIRE season just to get into space? Not very exciting.


The proper comparison here is to syndicated shows like TNG and DS9. DS9 was able to push the envelope and be daring and experimental, while VGR was constrained to formula. And that's at least partly because the syndicated shows had fewer bosses to answer to.
Stop acting like first run syndication is the best thing ever. There are a ton of forgotten terrible first run syndication shows, and shows like "Earth Final Conflict" and "Andromeda" which completely collapsed in terms of good writing after their first seasons.


Indeed, maybe the reason we haven't is because the producers were fighting the network and/or the studio fiercely and it just would make things look too bad if the battles were publicized. We just don't know.
Where is your evidence of this?

We DO know that several actors were dissatisfied without how the writers handled their characters. Robert Beltran and Garrett Wang disliked how they characters were developed, the writers retaliated by giving Chakotay less and less to work with every season. This doesn't seem like people that cared about their show.


So... now you're accepting my premise when before you were rejecting it? I'm confused.
I'm saying both the VOY writers and UPN are to blame. You seem to be saying the VOY writers were victims of a big bad network.
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Old September 11 2013, 01:48 AM   #36
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Re: Did TNG's Early Scope Shrink?

Agent Richard07 wrote: View Post
I heard that they considered bringing Voyager home and just having the show set in Federation space like TNG. But if they did that, what would have happened to the Maquis? Would a quick pardon have been plausible?
Well that would have been a defining move for the show, for good or ill. Voyager already gets enough rap as TNG-lite as is and this could have only enforced it. On the other side of the coin, if Voyager got back around season 3 or 4 it would've dropped in right during the middle of the Dominion War, which could've been interesting both in that and establishing the post war setting.

To your point though about the Maquis, they'd probably get pardoned. Heck, they had just fought a bloody two year war with millions of deaths that Cardassia instigated so a guerrilla group that operated against them would likely be seen with more sympathy in hindsight. Too bad Voyager had no epilogue whatsoever, so we don't get anything beyond "they're home."
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Old September 11 2013, 02:33 AM   #37
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Re: Did TNG's Early Scope Shrink?

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I don't think that would have worked. It would have been different, but taking an ENTIRE season just to get into space? Not very exciting.
That depends. Imagine something like HBO's From the Earth to the Moon miniseries, say, but with warp drive. Plus the social and historical dynamics of humanity dealing with the Vulcans' paternalism, explored more fully by showing us what life on Earth was like. There was a lot of potential there. And one can't fault the creators for being willing to take a risk.


Stop acting like first run syndication is the best thing ever.
I'm doing nothing of the sort. I'm simply pointing out a relative difference between two specific pairs of shows, not asserting some absolutist, universal claim. I don't believe in reducing everything to black and white, to opposing extremes. That is not the way the universe works. Most questions are far more nuanced and multifaceted than that. So please stop trying to make this into a fight. I have no desire for that. I'm just trying to explore the facets of the question.


There are a ton of forgotten terrible first run syndication shows, and shows like "Earth Final Conflict" and "Andromeda" which completely collapsed in terms of good writing after their first seasons.
Yes, because the particular studio that produced them meddled relentlessly in their productions and thus undermined the writing. But again, there are no simple absolutes here; it's a case-by-case thing. In the case of Tribune Entertainment, all their shows suffered from extreme studio meddling. But in the case of Paramount Television, at least where TNG and DS9 were concerned, they meddled less in the production than UPN did. Key word: less. No absolutes, no black-and-white extremes -- a relative difference. You're correct that it would be absurd to say that syndication as a whole is always better than network, which is why that's absolutely not what I'm saying. I'm merely discussing the particular case of the four modern Star Trek shows. Nothing I say is intended to be a blanket generalization beyond those four cases.


Indeed, maybe the reason we haven't is because the producers were fighting the network and/or the studio fiercely and it just would make things look too bad if the battles were publicized. We just don't know.
Where is your evidence of this?
Please read my statement again. I did not assert it as a statement of fact. On the contrary, I offered it as a hypothetical alternative possibility in order to underline that we do not actually know the facts. Any assumptions we make are purely speculative. I'm not saying I'm right or you're wrong -- I'm saying we do not know. And in the absence of hard evidence, the decent thing to do is to give people the benefit of the doubt, to presume them innocent.


So... now you're accepting my premise when before you were rejecting it? I'm confused.
I'm saying both the VOY writers and UPN are to blame. You seem to be saying the VOY writers were victims of a big bad network.
On the contrary -- didn't I explicitly say in my last post, "Few things are ever so simplistic as to have only one cause?" You're completely misreading my intentions, evidently because you want to interpret this conversation as a fight between extreme positions. But that's not the conversation I'm trying to have.

Perhaps we should just drop it. This is supposed to be a thread about TNG, and I fear we've dragged it off course.
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Old September 11 2013, 02:37 AM   #38
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Re: Did TNG's Early Scope Shrink?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
You know whenever I hear someone describe TOS as "the ship and crew were completely on their own without a Starfleet Command to call for backup" I honestly have to wonder if that person or persons has ever watched TOS, because that was not really the case.

In fact they frequently running into other Starfleet vessels and stations. And if they weren't doing that they were visiting federation member planets and colonies, or had dealings with federation officials.
Frequently, yes, but not constantly. There were other episodes that were predicated on the ship being isolated, having to wait weeks even for a response from Starfleet Command, so that Kirk had to be the one making decisions that could make the difference between war and peace. "Balance of Terror" is a prime example. The point isn't that TOS was always like that -- the point is that it could be like that, could tell that kind of story in a way that TNG rarely could.
Absolutely. Also the TOS crew didn't have 'direct' communication with Starfleet command, and on several occasions part of the drama is that it could take days for Kirk's communiques to get to them and a further few days for a response to make its way back to the Enterprise, in which time Kirk still needs to deal with the problem at hand. So there was a degree of isolation there, where the crew had more autonomy than TNG (where communication with Starfleet was often only a case of opening a direct channel). I think Voyager was a deliberate attempt to go back to this template, to make it so the crew had to solve problems for themselves rather than ask for advice and follow orders.

Agent Richard07 wrote: View Post
I heard that they considered bringing Voyager home and just having the show set in Federation space like TNG. But if they did that, what would have happened to the Maquis? Would a quick pardon have been plausible?
I don't think they wanted to deal with it.
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Old September 11 2013, 02:56 AM   #39
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Re: Did TNG's Early Scope Shrink?

Lance wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
You know whenever I hear someone describe TOS as "the ship and crew were completely on their own without a Starfleet Command to call for backup" I honestly have to wonder if that person or persons has ever watched TOS, because that was not really the case.

In fact they frequently running into other Starfleet vessels and stations. And if they weren't doing that they were visiting federation member planets and colonies, or had dealings with federation officials.
Frequently, yes, but not constantly. There were other episodes that were predicated on the ship being isolated, having to wait weeks even for a response from Starfleet Command, so that Kirk had to be the one making decisions that could make the difference between war and peace. "Balance of Terror" is a prime example. The point isn't that TOS was always like that -- the point is that it could be like that, could tell that kind of story in a way that TNG rarely could.
Absolutely. Also the TOS crew didn't have 'direct' communication with Starfleet command, and on several occasions part of the drama is that it could take days for Kirk's communiques to get to them and a further few days for a response to make its way back to the Enterprise, in which time Kirk still needs to deal with the problem at hand. So there was a degree of isolation there, where the crew had more autonomy than TNG (where communication with Starfleet was often only a case of opening a direct channel). I think Voyager was a deliberate attempt to go back to this template, to make it so the crew had to solve problems for themselves rather than ask for advice and follow orders.
A show about a ship being is more isolated doesn't necessarily make it better.

TNG wasn't trying to be TOS. They were set during two different eras of the Federation.

In TOS, space was still quite unexplored and they were alone very often.

In TNG, the Federation has grown in considerable size and it had become more about keeping the peace. The tensions between the Federation and the Klingon Empire had lessen after they had become allies. That alliance pretty much kept the Romulans in check. The Federation was enjoying a period of harmony that it had not known for decades.

There were of course exceptions, like the two Borg incursions into Federation territory, and dealing with the aftermath of the first Cardassian war.
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Old September 11 2013, 03:56 AM   #40
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Re: Did TNG's Early Scope Shrink?

Lance wrote: View Post
Absolutely. Also the TOS crew didn't have 'direct' communication with Starfleet command, and on several occasions part of the drama is that it could take days for Kirk's communiques to get to them and a further few days for a response to make its way back to the Enterprise, in which time Kirk still needs to deal with the problem at hand.
For some reason, it seemed that whenever they were out of direct contact with Starfleet, the response time was always three weeks. Well, not constantly, but a figure of three weeks or more was specifically cited in "Return to Tomorrow," "The Enterprise Incident," and even TAS: "The Time Trap."


Dream wrote: View Post
TNG wasn't trying to be TOS. They were set during two different eras of the Federation.

In TOS, space was still quite unexplored and they were alone very often.

In TNG, the Federation has grown in considerable size and it had become more about keeping the peace.
Well, yes, that's the whole point -- that TNG wasn't like TOS because it was in a more civilized era. That's why the producers of the later shows wanted to do something that was more like TOS again -- first with VGR, isolating the ship on the other end of the galaxy, then with ENT, going back to the beginning where Archer's crew were completely on their own with no possibility of calling in backup. They wanted to recapture the frontier flavor that they felt TNG had lost. (Although, as discussed, this ran up against UPN's desire to make the shows as TNG-like as possible.)

And here we come back around to the initial topic of the thread, because TNG itself was originally meant to be way out on the uncharted frontier and rarely returning to explored space, but that idea was abandoned almost as soon as the pilot was over, and it instead ended up being defined by its portrait of a tamed, settled civilization where the frontier had once been.
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Old September 11 2013, 04:27 AM   #41
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Re: Did TNG's Early Scope Shrink?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
their desire was to get back to the flavor of TOS where the ship and crew were completely on their own without a Starfleet Command to call for backup,
You know whenever I hear someone describe TOS as "the ship and crew were completely on their own without a Starfleet Command to call for backup" I honestly have to wonder if that person or persons has ever watched TOS, because that was not really the case.
It most certainly was the case. How many times were they able to call in reinforcements, outside of ERRAND OF MERCY (which is one where the showdown was already coming before the show started?) Usually the Enterprise WAS the reinforcement in response to a call if they were local.

But you have plenty of shows like RETURN TO TOMORROW and I believe SAVAGE CURTAIN where they are operating weeks away from Starfleet, even by radio. That is the frontier, and that is the aspect ModernTrek really lost (even though according to their guide it was still only a sliver of the galaxy that had been explored -- instead of TOS' 4% it was 11 or 17% wasn't it?), especially with their ships seemingly outclassing most would-be opponents.

The premise of the show has been called near-anthology, because you could do all kinds of shows; but if you lost the frontier aspect, you lost the principal hook. It's like when you go from the old west to the horseless carriage ... you have a short time of extreme interest when the old generation has to try to adapt to the new more boring ways, and then you have a much less interesting area in terms of drama (at least till world wars start.) That's why the biggest miss in Trek history (outside perhaps of Lil Enterprise and not really SHOWING how we bootstrapped our way up after ww3) is not doing the era the movies were entering, the end of century, when you would have the real transition from TOS to TNG begin happening.
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Old September 11 2013, 09:47 PM   #42
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Re: Did TNG's Early Scope Shrink?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
You know whenever I hear someone describe TOS as "the ship and crew were completely on their own without a Starfleet Command to call for backup" I honestly have to wonder if that person or persons has ever watched TOS, because that was not really the case.

In fact they frequently running into other Starfleet vessels and stations. And if they weren't doing that they were visiting federation member planets and colonies, or had dealings with federation officials.
Frequently, yes, but not constantly. There were other episodes that were predicated on the ship being isolated, having to wait weeks even for a response from Starfleet Command, so that Kirk had to be the one making decisions that could make the difference between war and peace. "Balance of Terror" is a prime example. The point isn't that TOS was always like that -- the point is that it could be like that, could tell that kind of story in a way that TNG rarely could.
Those type of episodes are among my favorites of the series.
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Old September 13 2013, 01:20 PM   #43
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Re: Did TNG's Early Scope Shrink?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
Absolutely. Also the TOS crew didn't have 'direct' communication with Starfleet command, and on several occasions part of the drama is that it could take days for Kirk's communiques to get to them and a further few days for a response to make its way back to the Enterprise, in which time Kirk still needs to deal with the problem at hand.
For some reason, it seemed that whenever they were out of direct contact with Starfleet, the response time was always three weeks. Well, not constantly, but a figure of three weeks or more was specifically cited in "Return to Tomorrow," "The Enterprise Incident," and even TAS: "The Time Trap."


Dream wrote: View Post
TNG wasn't trying to be TOS. They were set during two different eras of the Federation.

In TOS, space was still quite unexplored and they were alone very often.

In TNG, the Federation has grown in considerable size and it had become more about keeping the peace.
Well, yes, that's the whole point -- that TNG wasn't like TOS because it was in a more civilized era. That's why the producers of the later shows wanted to do something that was more like TOS again -- first with VGR, isolating the ship on the other end of the galaxy, then with ENT, going back to the beginning where Archer's crew were completely on their own with no possibility of calling in backup. They wanted to recapture the frontier flavor that they felt TNG had lost. (Although, as discussed, this ran up against UPN's desire to make the shows as TNG-like as possible.)

And here we come back around to the initial topic of the thread, because TNG itself was originally meant to be way out on the uncharted frontier and rarely returning to explored space, but that idea was abandoned almost as soon as the pilot was over, and it instead ended up being defined by its portrait of a tamed, settled civilization where the frontier had once been.
Couldn't have put it better myself. Now I see why you are the writer.
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Old September 13 2013, 01:58 PM   #44
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Re: Did TNG's Early Scope Shrink?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
Absolutely. Also the TOS crew didn't have 'direct' communication with Starfleet command, and on several occasions part of the drama is that it could take days for Kirk's communiques to get to them and a further few days for a response to make its way back to the Enterprise, in which time Kirk still needs to deal with the problem at hand.
For some reason, it seemed that whenever they were out of direct contact with Starfleet, the response time was always three weeks. Well, not constantly, but a figure of three weeks or more was specifically cited in "Return to Tomorrow", "The Enterprise Incident" and even TAS: "The Time Trap".
Now that is interesting. That does make one wonder if even the Constituion Class Enterprise was often no more than a certain distance from Federation space? If the three week thing is a measure of how far away they are from 'home'.

Of course, Roddenberry always said he didn't like the idea of the Enterprise reporting in to home or visiting Earth. It's somewhat ironic that most of the TOS movies revolved around trips back and forth from Earth, rather than anything resembling "exploring strange new worlds".
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Old September 13 2013, 02:08 PM   #45
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Re: Did TNG's Early Scope Shrink?

Lance wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
For some reason, it seemed that whenever they were out of direct contact with Starfleet, the response time was always three weeks. Well, not constantly, but a figure of three weeks or more was specifically cited in "Return to Tomorrow", "The Enterprise Incident" and even TAS: "The Time Trap".
Now that is interesting. That does make one wonder if even the Constituion Class Enterprise was often no more than a certain distance from Federation space? If the three week thing is a measure of how far away they are from 'home'.
I don't take it as anything more than a coincidence. These were episodes written in different seasons by different people, and somehow they all gravitated toward three weeks as a suitable delay.
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