RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,673
Posts: 5,212,660
Members: 24,200
Currently online: 579
Newest member: joymuckey


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 25 2013, 11:21 AM   #1
polyharmonic
Lieutenant
 
"Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

In the episode "Second Chances", some kind of transporter "accident" causes Riker to split into two people. To beam Riker back, two transport beams of Riker were created to ensure his pattern could get through the planet's "distortion field". The two beams were supposed to be "recombined" back on the ship before re-materializing.

But instead one beamed back aboard safely while the other beam reflected back and rematerialized back on the planet. Eight years later they find the second Riker.

According to the episode, Will asks which one of them is real and Dr Crusher answers that they "both are". But I'm not sure if that makes the most sense.

Other possibilities are:
- One of the two is real and a continuation of the "original Riker". The other is a DUPLICATE.

- BOTH are duplicates. The original Riker is DEAD! And if so it is very possible that whenever someone transports, it is their DUPLICATE that rematerializes. The original is DEAD!

This episode strongly suggests that transporters are capable of "creating" new life out of thin air essentially. And if so, then it also stands to reason that it is also destroying life as well!
polyharmonic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25 2013, 12:15 PM   #2
The Old Mixer
Vice Admiral
 
The Old Mixer's Avatar
 
Location: Connecticut
Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

The idea that a person is killed and copied whenever they use a transporter has been around for a long time in offscreen lore. I read about it in the early novel Spock Must Die!

Regarding the transporter being able to make two equally valid versions of one person, there is precedent in Trek. In "The Enemy Within", neither half of Kirk is the whole package...each possesses qualities that are integral to his personality. Both are equal duplicates physically, however. There was no such clear division between the Riker duplicates, other than the circumstances under which they'd lived after the accident.
The Old Mixer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25 2013, 12:40 PM   #3
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

Post deleted.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25 2013, 03:44 PM   #4
vulcan redshirt
Lieutenant Commander
 
Location: UK
Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

I would assume that episodes such as TNG Realm of Fear, and ENT Vanishing Point were deliberately written to 'assure' viewers that their favourite characters were not being killed off (and merely duplicated) each time they stepped onto a transporter pad. This is on the basis of an apparent continuity of consciousness of the person being transported.

Another disturbing implication of the Riker style duplication, is that it would seem perfectly plausible to create a clone (or more) of oneself for nefaroius purposes.
vulcan redshirt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25 2013, 03:56 PM   #5
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

But apparently it isn't murder if you kill your own clone, as Riker did in Up the Long Ladder, so at least there's a contractual loophole to get out that inconvenient implication.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25 2013, 04:17 PM   #6
Mojochi
Fleet Captain
 
Mojochi's Avatar
 
Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

vulcan redshirt wrote: View Post
Another disturbing implication of the Riker style duplication, is that it would seem perfectly plausible to create a clone (or more) of oneself for nefaroius purposes.
Such a recreation of the events which generated a second Riker could be nearly impossible to achieve. As I understand it, Riker was beaming through a planet wide distortion field at the specific time a massive energy burst occurred. Two containment beams were initiated, which turned out to be unnecessary as the 1st was sufficient. When the 2nd was shut down, it was reflected off the distortion field, in its highly charged state, back to the beam out point

So it's arguable that the nature of that specific distortion field, during that random energy fluctuation was as much, if not more, the reason for the 2nd beam resulting in a full pattern materialization of an additional Riker than just initiating 2 beams on one target
Mojochi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25 2013, 04:19 PM   #7
E-DUB
Captain
 
Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

One recent novel has someone recreating that effect for purposes of building up the Andorian population. (Can't remember title, though.)
E-DUB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25 2013, 04:42 PM   #8
The Librarian
Fleet Captain
 
Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

R. Star wrote: View Post
But apparently it isn't murder if you kill your own clone, as Riker did in Up the Long Ladder, so at least there's a contractual loophole to get out that inconvenient implication.
Actually, it is, per one of the early DS9 episodes. The only difference between the two is that Riker's clone wasn't fully formed and conscious yet. If he had tried to kill Tom or if the UPLL clone had been walking and talking, it would have been murder, no questions asked.
The Librarian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25 2013, 04:43 PM   #9
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

Sorry, I'm not buying that as it's a cop out meant to save face on one of the main characters doing something heinous. Unless you really mean because a child isn't fully formed yet, killing them isn't a crime.
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25 2013, 05:53 PM   #10
Makarov
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

In real life I would never step on the transporter pad, because the real you "dying" is the only explanation that makes sense to me. Not to mention both versions of "The Fly" freak me out.

However, I'm sure the intention by the creators is that it's a pretty harmless quick way of transportation, not a death machine.
Makarov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25 2013, 05:58 PM   #11
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

I'd think the UTLL scenario is more akin to aborting a child conceived by rape. Riker never gave his consent.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25 2013, 08:10 PM   #12
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

polyharmonic wrote: View Post
According to the episode, Will asks which one of them is real and Dr Crusher answers that they "both are". But I'm not sure if that makes the most sense.
If you take a starfish and either cut or rip it in half, the two halves will regrow a entire starfish, complete with any physical abnormalities the orginal starfish possessed. Identical in DNA too.

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
In "The Enemy Within", neither half of Kirk is the whole package...each possesses qualities that are integral to his personality.
An interesting detail about this episode is, according to Deanna after the transporter incident Riker changed, his romance with her became less important and his career gained importance.

While less than with the two Kirk, perhaps the Riker who beamed up wasn't quite the same Riker. There was a psychological difference.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25 2013, 08:28 PM   #13
Melakon
Rear Admiral
 
Melakon's Avatar
 
Location: Unmarked grave, Ekos
Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

Will Riker is the evil Riker? Makes sense.
__________________
Curly: Moe, Larry, the cheese! Moe, Larry, the cheese! (Horses Collars, 1935)
Melakon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 25 2013, 09:22 PM   #14
Timo
Admiral
 
Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

Another disturbing implication of the Riker style duplication, is that it would seem perfectly plausible to create a clone (or more) of oneself for nefaroius purposes.
Or for beneficial, altruist, beautiful, wonderful purposes, for that matter. Why should one concentrate on "nefarious" here?

Human existence is all about creating new human existence anyway. What's so negative about cloning as opposed to other types of breeding?

Actually, it is, per one of the early DS9 episodes.
"A Man Alone". But we don't know whose law we're talking about there. Bajoran law might be far more "archaic" in this respect than UFP law...

Unless you really mean because a child isn't fully formed yet, killing them isn't a crime.
In most places, it isn't.

Timo Saloniemi
Timo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 26 2013, 07:12 AM   #15
Push The Button
Commander
 
Push The Button's Avatar
 
Location: Smithfield, Rhode Island USA
Re: "Second Chances" and its disturbing implications

I have always understood the process as matter being converted to energy, then back to matter at the destination point. If it is your own original atoms being reassembled in another place, it isn't a copy of you, it is you.

If, on the other hand, the transporter is merely sending your "blueprint" somewhere, and you are being recreated out of the atoms on-hand at the destination point, that would be making a copy of you.
__________________
It is the stated position of the Department of Defense and the United States Air Force that a rigidly enforced system of safeguards and controls insure that occurrences such as those depicted in this story cannot happen.
Push The Button is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:18 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.