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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old August 22 2013, 05:17 PM   #16
Praetor
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Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive

TOS played much more fast and loose with the pre-warp thing than TNG did. Perhaps "Justice" and "Code of Honor" were holdovers from that line of thinking.
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Old August 22 2013, 07:33 PM   #17
sariel2005
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Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive

TOS played much more fast and loose with the pre-warp thing than TNG did. Perhaps "Justice" and "Code of Honor" were holdovers from that line of thinking.
Possibly, though as early as Bread and Circuses, the doctrine on no identification of self and mission is stated to be part of the Prime Directive.
Not that they cared about showing up in uniform at that point
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Old August 22 2013, 07:36 PM   #18
Timo
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Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive

"Justice" seems to show a pre warp civilization, and possibly "Code of Honor" too.
...While, in contrast, no episode states or suggests that pre-warp civilizations should not be contacted or interacted with. Indeed, say, the word "warp" is not uttered a single time in "Pen Pals"!

Then again we see on multiple occasions that the Prime Directive means that the Federation would rather sit back and watch a culture die than aid them if they are unaware of alien life.
I can think of just two examples of such: "Pen Pals" and "Homeward". And in the former, nobody actually suggests sitting back and watching the Dremans die; it's merely a case of Picard calling for a philosophical debate on what they are about to do before they actually get on with it, lest anybody think that the PD could be automatically and categorically ignored.

As for "Homeward", the lack of technological sophistication or awareness of interstellar politics by the Boraalans is never mentioned as affecting Picard's decision not to interfere, one way or the other.

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Old August 22 2013, 08:35 PM   #19
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Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive

Timo wrote: View Post
I can think of just two examples of such: "Pen Pals" and "Homeward". And in the former, nobody actually suggests sitting back and watching the Dremans die; it's merely a case of Picard calling for a philosophical debate on what they are about to do before they actually get on with it, lest anybody think that the PD could be automatically and categorically ignored.
Wrong.

Pen Pals wrote:
DATA: We are going to allow her to die, are we not?
PICARD: Data, I want you to sever the contact with Drema Four.
(Data goes to a wall panel and taps in commands)
COMPUTER: Isolating frequency.
SARJENKA [OC]: Data. Data, where are you? Why won't you answer? Are you angry me? Please, please, I'm so afraid. Data, Data, where are you?
PICARD: Wait. Oh, Data. Your whisper from the dark has now become a plea. We cannot turn our backs.
Picard was going to allow them to die until he heard the little girls' pleas for help.
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Old August 22 2013, 09:07 PM   #20
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Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive

As for "Homeward", the lack of technological sophistication or awareness of interstellar politics by the Boraalans is never mentioned as affecting Picard's decision not to interfere, one way or the other.
He insists that the Boraalans not become aware of the Federation even at the point that they are all going to die in a few hours, otherwise why send Worf down in disguise. He tells watches what he thinks is the destruction of the Boraalans after being offered a viable alternative to save them and makes a statement about honouring the prime directive and is tells Nikoli he has destroyed his career by saving them.
As an aside I still find it hilarious that he sees that the Chronicler who killed himself and says that he would not have died alone and in fear on the planet. Personally I think he would probably have been pretty scared.
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Old August 22 2013, 09:09 PM   #21
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Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive

Picard was going to allow them to die until he heard the little girls' pleas for help.
No, he says no such thing. He tells Data to stop the one thing that is against the Prime Directive - talking with the native.

That was the only thing that Picard found wrong about the events, at any point of the story. Data being insubordinate was his sole voiced-out worry about the sorry affair. At no point does he protest against plans to save the Dremans; very much to the contrary, he arranges for such plans, arranges a conference to discuss them, and then executes them.

"Letting them die" is something Riker makes fun of, with his "fate" comments. Nobody seems seriously concerned about that aspect of the discussion.

He insists that the Boraalans not become aware of the Federation even at the point that they are all going to die in a few hours, otherwise why send Worf down in disguise.
Quite so. But this doesn't constitute evidence on what affected Picard's noninterference decision and what did not, which was the only point I was making there.

Really, there's a funny bias there if people really think TNG is about letting primitives die, when "Homeward" is the only example of this anywhere in the show.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old August 22 2013, 09:16 PM   #22
sariel2005
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Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive

"Letting them die" is something Riker makes fun of, with his "fate" comments. Nobody seems seriously concerned about that aspect of the discussion.
Riker says that letting them die is an option they should be considering and both that and his fate comment are completely in earnest.
the debate is entirely because Picard feels that violation of the Prime Directive "however well intentioned" is wrong. Its clear that the girls pleas do sway him but he is still somewhat unsure. After all if he was sure he would not call a conference discussing the prime directive in the first place.
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Old August 22 2013, 09:39 PM   #23
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Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive

Timo wrote: View Post
No, he says no such thing. He tells Data to stop the one thing that is against the Prime Directive - talking with the native.
Come on, Timo. There is no possible way that you believe that.

Data asks Picard if they are going to let her die and Picard answers by telling him to cut communication. The meaning is pretty plain.

If he was going to save her then there would have been no reason for this line:

Pen Pals wrote:
PICARD: Wait. Oh, Data. Your whisper from the dark has now become a plea. We cannot turn our backs.
No need for the dramatic pause, no need for Data manipulating the situation by making the signal audible for everyone in the room to hear.
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Old August 22 2013, 10:01 PM   #24
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Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive

Data asks Picard if they are going to let her die and Picard answers by telling him to cut communication. The meaning is pretty plain.
Data has been told not to communicate. Several times, with direct orders. His response? Accusing Picard of murderous intent! Picard should have phasered down the cybernetic asshole there and then, but all he does is quietly offer this failure of an officer one last chance to redeem his career. I have no reason to think Data's accusation would have had any basis in fact, and indeed his libel should be added to the list of charges.

No need for the dramatic pause, no need for Data manipulating the situation by making the signal audible for everyone in the room to hear.
Data can manipulate all he wants - yet more black marks against him. This doesn't change the fact that Picard asked him for proposals for saving Sarjenka's people, launched a study into them, and (coincidentally only after the hearing) executed them.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old August 22 2013, 10:02 PM   #25
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Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive

What are you even talking about? Have you even seen the episode?
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Old August 22 2013, 11:13 PM   #26
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Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive

Data has been told not to communicate. Several times, with direct orders. His response? Accusing Picard of murderous intent! Picard should have phasered down the cybernetic asshole there and then, but all he does is quietly offer this failure of an officer one last chance to redeem his career. I have no reason to think Data's accusation would have had any basis in fact, and indeed his libel should be added to the list of charges.
Data is not accusing Picard of anything, merely asking a question. While his ethical programming may well cause him to ask if they are letting someone die accusing Picard of murder would be based in emotion, something that Data is not capable of.
It seems as if the girls plea does sway Picard, and its almost as if being asked for help gives him wiggle room to intervene. Which makes a sort of sense. Starfleet can ( and does) offer aid to those aware of them and will respond to requests for aid but otherwise have a non intervention policy no matter what.
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Old August 23 2013, 10:08 PM   #27
Maxwell Everett
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Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive

Timo wrote: View Post
Data has been told not to communicate. Several times, with direct orders. His response? Accusing Picard of murderous intent! Picard should have phasered down the cybernetic asshole there and then, but all he does is quietly offer this failure of an officer one last chance to redeem his career. I have no reason to think Data's accusation would have had any basis in fact, and indeed his libel should be added to the list of charges.
Libel is a written (not spoken) defamation, I think you mean slander. And surely phasering down an officer whom he argued in court just a few months prior was a sentient being is not only way out of character for Picard... but would in fact demonstrate a murderous intent!
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Old August 23 2013, 10:45 PM   #28
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Re: TNG episodes where they hang out with species without warp drive

Libel is a written (not spoken) defamation, I think you mean slander
beaten in an argument by J.J.Jameson!
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