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General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

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Old August 24 2013, 03:43 AM   #106
JirinPanthosa
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Some people think that a utopia is a world where everybody is completely unselfish.

I say a utopia is a world where a completely selfish person and a completely unselfish person would behave in the exact same way. And that's the world that's far more likely than the world where everybody is unselfish.

Isn't Mr. Dawkins the prominent spokesperson of Atheism?

Richard Dawkins is to Atheism as Pat Robertson is to Christianity.
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Old August 24 2013, 06:13 AM   #107
R. Star
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

The only world where people stop being selfish is a world that doesn't have people.
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Old August 25 2013, 04:56 AM   #108
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Captain Kathryn wrote: View Post
But, there was no actual damage done EVERYWHERE on the planet. If THAT were to happen...and the devastation literally covered the entire planet...we'd probably HAVE to ban together to help fix it.
The third world war killed about six percent of the Human race, but by the mid-21st century that could happen by destroying just the twenty-five biggest cities.

Just like with in the first two world wars there was probably vast areas of the Earth that were untouched by the war directly, although the world wide economy likely fell as a result.

It is difficult to imagine a large war having any part in bring the Human race together. On the other hand, the arrival of aliens (and alien technology) could have been responsible all by itself.



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Old August 29 2013, 02:00 AM   #109
soapp
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

As for the bit about war and alien encounter bringing humans together, I wouldn't count on that.

9/11 was dramatic, for many people it has changed their lives for the better, but politically speaking we've become somewhat more paranoid and afraid. So instead of lets of out and explore, it had more of the lock the doors and turn on the TV effect. I mean we dropped 2 atomic bombs on Japan, we're still not working for space exploration. If WW3 was like in Star Trek, I think the outcome would make things worse.

As for alien's contacting us, well nothing official and open yet. But if they did contact us, seems like the US government is keeping it hush hush, and other governments acknowledge the presence, but don't seem to do much about it. Technology is power, if the US got UFO tech, they ain't sharing it.
...

My best example is the ending of the movie Children of Men
***[spoiler]****There has been no children for 18 or so years, everyone realizes it's pretty much the end of humans, and then a baby is born, in the middle of a battlefield. Everyone stops shooting, and look at the child in awe, then someone sees and opening and shoots, and everything resumes.***[/spoiler]****

With a sign of hope like that you'd expect people to band together, but old habits die hard, it's just a movie, but I feel it's a believable reaction.
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Old August 29 2013, 03:19 AM   #110
Stoek
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

soapp wrote: View Post
As for the bit about war and alien encounter bringing humans together, I wouldn't count on that.
My grandfather used to say, "Nobody changes unless they hurt badly enough."

I've always believed this is what happened to make the Trek future come about. The Post Atomic Horror period was so awful for so many people that they began to demand something different from themselves and their leaders. Now this by itself might not have led to anything, but right on the heels of that came a first contact with another race of beings that happened in a way that no government on Earth could ignore or claim didn't happen.

Ultimately while the details of how we get to the future shown in Star Trek are fictional, the fundamental idea of humanity making common cause, and focusing on something grander than mere survival I think is the only realistic prescription for humanities continuation.

And as fiction goes the fact that the bettered society shown in Trek only came about after a nuclear holocaust is what has always made Star Trek feel more believable and more possible than stories that proclaim that we just woke up one morning all perfect and enlightened.
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Old August 29 2013, 06:03 AM   #111
CorporalCaptain
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

soapp wrote: View Post
***[spoiler]****There has been no children for 18 or so years, everyone realizes it's pretty much the end of humans, and then a baby is born, in the middle of a battlefield. Everyone stops shooting, and look at the child in awe, then someone sees and opening and shoots, and everything resumes.***[/spoiler]****
That's not exactly how I saw it. What I saw was that everybody stops shooting until the baby is out of harm's way. Once the baby is safe, fighting resumes.
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Old August 29 2013, 12:25 PM   #112
T'Girl
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Stoek wrote: View Post
The Post Atomic Horror period was so awful for so many people that they began to demand something different from themselves and their leaders. Now this by itself might not have led to anything, but right on the heels of that came a first contact with another race of beings
Didn't the "post-atomic horror" come after the arrival of the Vulcans, and not before?

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Old August 29 2013, 01:26 PM   #113
Nightdiamond
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Didn't the "post-atomic horror" come after the arrival of the Vulcans, and not before?
Yep, Trek messed up a bit on that. I always thought they added to much to the WWIII thing. Instead of keeping it straight forward and simple, it became really bloated and confusing.

Humans had a devastating war, are desperate, had enough, aliens arrive and they make a permanent change. That works by itself.

So even after a devasting war, discovery of life on other planets, and a visit from aliens with advanced tech, humans were still acting that stupid 16 years later?

Humans were supposed to be doing very badly, yet was functioning enough for them to build experimental space ships.

Nah, they added too many different stories to it.
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Old August 30 2013, 05:59 AM   #114
Push The Button
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Didn't the "post-atomic horror" come after the arrival of the Vulcans, and not before?
Yep, Trek messed up a bit on that. I always thought they added to much to the WWIII thing. Instead of keeping it straight forward and simple, it became really bloated and confusing.

Humans had a devastating war, are desperate, had enough, aliens arrive and they make a permanent change. That works by itself.

So even after a devasting war, discovery of life on other planets, and a visit from aliens with advanced tech, humans were still acting that stupid 16 years later?

Humans were supposed to be doing very badly, yet was functioning enough for them to build experimental space ships.

Nah, they added too many different stories to it.
Too many different writers, with no continuity editor to keep all of it straight, requiring lots of retconning to make it all fit together somehow. Sooner or later it becomes an unmanageable mess.
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Old August 30 2013, 08:47 PM   #115
Nine of Four
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Enow wrote: View Post
***Warning!!! It is a depressing topic ***
It's not depressing, stupid!!
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Old August 31 2013, 01:25 AM   #116
R. Star
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

^

Classy.
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Old August 31 2013, 03:52 AM   #117
Nightdiamond
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Push The Button wrote: View Post
Too many different writers, with no continuity editor to keep all of it straight, requiring lots of retconning to make it all fit together somehow. Sooner or later it becomes an unmanageable mess.
True--they added way too much to what should have been a relatively simple concept. All the stuff they've added is overkill.

You should see the ret-conning on the Wikipedia pages surrounding this.

The Eugenics war was supposed to be a global nuclear conflict (1992 through 1996) that killed over 30 million. But that still wasn't WW III.

Then Voyager says the crew traveled back to earth in 1996 , but life seems normal--no mention of any eugenics war at all. It was supposed to be a global Conflict that involved the US.

According to TOS, military servicemen in 1996 should have been wearing red space-looking jump suits.

Then Past Tense from DS9 says that in 2024 America existed in some semi police state, and Europe is nearly falling apart because of protests, but at this point it should have already been in tatters.

Yet other timelines and episodes say that life in the US is completely normal--in 2032 they're playing baseball and such.

Then FC says WW III started 2026 and killed 600 million. Civilization is severely crippled, yet civilians are building experimental warp ships with scrap metal.

And then, 16 years after first contact with Vulcans and their technology and knowledge, apparently parts of the US is still in some depraved state, holding weird trials and with enough resources to supply their military with drugs.

Oh by the way, did you know that according to Voyager half of California doesn't exist in the 24th century because it sank in an earthquake in 2047?

Sometimes science fiction can be as bad as religious fundamentalism

Last edited by Nightdiamond; August 31 2013 at 04:34 AM.
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Old August 31 2013, 03:58 AM   #118
Melakon
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

The difference, science fiction is real.
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Old August 31 2013, 02:13 PM   #119
1001001
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Nine of Four wrote: View Post
Enow wrote: View Post
***Warning!!! It is a depressing topic ***
It's not depressing, stupid!!
Calling other posters "stupid" is not okay. You can disagree without namecalling.

Infraction for flaming.
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Old August 31 2013, 09:06 PM   #120
T'Girl
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Re: The Reality of Star Trek

Push The Button wrote: View Post
Sooner or later it becomes an unmanageable mess.
That's likely taking it too far, while there are occasional contradictions, with a little thought the majority of Star Trek makes sense.

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
The Eugenics war was supposed to be a global nuclear conflict (1992 through 1996) that killed over 30 million. But that still wasn't WW III.
Agree, the eugenics war and the third world war are completely seperate events.

Then Voyager says the crew traveled back to earth in 1996 , but life seems normal--no mention of any eugenics war at all. It was supposed to be a global Conflict that involved the US.
I've always assumed that the eugenics war would have been concentrated in the parts of the world where the "supermen" gained power, and not involving America. We actually don't get involved in every war.

From 1998 through 2003 there was a major multi-country war in Africa that killed five and a half million people, most Americans never even heard of it. Easy to believe that there could be a major war ongoing elsewhere in the world and it wouldn't directly impact the average citizen in Los Angeles.

Then FC says WW III started 2026 and killed 600 million.
From Data's statements the third world war ended about the year 2053, I don't believe there's anything in canon concerning when it began. It could have been very brief and bloody, lasting only one or two years.

And then, 16 years after first contact with Vulcans and their technology and knowledge, apparently parts of the US is still in some depraved state, holding weird trials ...
It would be hard to say where in the world the "post-atomic horror" was supposed to have been located, since Q seemed particularly interested in Picard perhaps in France?

Oh by the way, did you know that according to Voyager half of California doesn't exist in the 24th century because it sank in an earthquake in 2047?
Nothing would seem to counterindicate this. I can't off hand remember any mention of LA in the various series post-21st century, the coastial plain could have subsided (would not exactly be "half").

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