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Old September 11 2013, 02:21 PM   #106
Deano2099
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

DonIago wrote: View Post
You mean the rule that most of the posters here don't seem to have a problem with?
It's selection bias. Those that don't like have left already.

There's being sensible obviously, but what I'm trying to get at is say there's a thread about Vanguard discussing the series as a whole.

And someone says something like the following, but without the spoiler tags.


Are people seriously arguing that shouldn't be spoilered? Sure it's old, but the books aren't even related and people won't read stuff in order. And it totally spoils the big twist of Destiny. And try and bear in mind that even if you are not arguing that, some of your fellow posters are, and they've made it quite clear that unless the rules tell them otherwise they're not going to use spoiler code, which means it absolutely needs to be in the rules to cater for people like Halliwell.
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Old September 11 2013, 02:34 PM   #107
Scout101
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

Just to continue to poke at it, you realize the book you're trying to hide the spoiler from came out in 2008, right? At what point do we assume that you're either caught up, or not GOING to catch up any time soon?

I get the example of spoiler in a thread that's not specific to the thread topic, but that happened 5 years ago, and the series was a pretty huge impact on the entire rest of the book line. Since it touched about everything, going to come up occasionally, no matter how much you try to avoid it.

to have SOME sort of basis for disucssion, there's gotta be some common ground to discuss. If we're trying to protect someone 5 years behind, it's nonsense to even HAVE a discussion forum, as what's still in-bounds? The first half-dozen numbered TOS books? What if someone hasn't gotten around to reading The Entropy Effect yet? No discussion at all? Are we allowed to discuss ANY DS9 books, since they clearly have things in a different point than when the series ended? Can we even mention
at all? Would make discussing RBoE difficult...

Sure, try and keep the discussion relevent to the thread topic, to give people a chance to avoid spoilers by skipping the threads they're behind on. But at some point, if you're that far behind, it's on YOU to stay out of ANY thread that's past what you've read.

Decent rule of thumb, anyway: if you're behind, don't read a thread for ANYTHING that was released after your current reading point. No matter what series. Because there's a lot of bleed-over (mostly in TNG era, obviously), so things may come out. If you're 5 years behind, may want to avoid everything other than the release listing thread...
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Old September 11 2013, 03:00 PM   #108
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

I agree that it's totally unfair to toss in spoilers for books that are not part of the thread's subject. To be discussing Vanguard and then toss in a major possible series spoiling spoiler (for some) for Destiny without a spoiler code is wrong no matter how old the Destiny trilogy is.

The thing is, this rule that says its OK to spoil books older then six months is wrong. It needs to be repealed. We need to put in place a rule that says to use spoiler codes. Be sensible.

As Dano2099 has said, some of the regulars have already left. or are not as active. Why? My guess is because of you (you know who you are) that don't care if you ruin books for others. Please stop this nonsense and use spoilers where appropriate.

This "Oh goody, this book is more then six months old so let's put major spoilers in places they don't belong out in the open so we (or I) can ruin it for others who have yet to read it" attitude has got to stop. You are driving people away. Do you really want to do that?
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Old September 11 2013, 03:31 PM   #109
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

Do you have evidence that anyone's actually taken the approach you mention in your last paragraph?
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Old September 11 2013, 03:46 PM   #110
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

DonIago wrote: View Post
Do you have evidence that anyone's actually taken the approach you mention in your last paragraph?
Not 100%. But given some of the attitudes here, I think it's more then a reasonable assumption. There are no apologies for the spoilers and those who posted them do not seem to give a damn.

They use the excuse that because the book is "old" it's OK to toss in spoilers whenever and wherever.
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Old September 11 2013, 04:05 PM   #111
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

I'd say if you really think it's a valid issue then you should poll the userbase asking whether they feel 6 months is a reasonable timeframe. I might recommend proposing other timeframes as well.

Not that it will necessarily lead to a policy revision, as that's up to the mods, but at least then you could point to the poll as an indicator of what people would prefer to see in a spoiler policy.

Until then I think you might come across more favorably if you made more of an effort to assume good faith of your fellow posters.
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Old September 11 2013, 04:14 PM   #112
JWolf
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

DonIago wrote: View Post
I'd say if you really think it's a valid issue then you should poll the userbase asking whether they feel 6 months is a reasonable timeframe. I might recommend proposing other timeframes as well.

Not that it will necessarily lead to a policy revision, as that's up to the mods, but at least then you could point to the poll as an indicator of what people would prefer to see in a spoiler policy.

Until then I think you might come across more favorably if you made more of an effort to assume good faith of your fellow posters.
I base what I say on the actions of others. There are some that have spoiled things in ways that have have no been done. Those people don't give a damn and will most likely do it again given the chance. Others I know will put in spoiler codes and will do so to be polite.

Personally, I'm for dumping a time period and putting in spoilers wherever they are appropriate. As I said before, it's only two mouse clicks at most to get to the spoiler dialogue.
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Old September 11 2013, 04:18 PM   #113
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

JWolf wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
I'd say if you really think it's a valid issue then you should poll the userbase asking whether they feel 6 months is a reasonable timeframe. I might recommend proposing other timeframes as well.

Not that it will necessarily lead to a policy revision, as that's up to the mods, but at least then you could point to the poll as an indicator of what people would prefer to see in a spoiler policy.

Until then I think you might come across more favorably if you made more of an effort to assume good faith of your fellow posters.
I base what I say on the actions of others. There are some that have spoiled things in ways that have have no been done. Those people don't give a damn and will most likely do it again given the chance. Others I know will put in spoiler codes and will do so to be polite.

Personally, I'm for dumping a time period and putting in spoilers wherever they are appropriate. As I said before, it's only two mouse clicks at most to get to the spoiler dialogue.
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Old September 11 2013, 04:21 PM   #114
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

JWolf wrote: View Post
I base what I say on the actions of others. There are some that have spoiled things in ways that have have no been done. Those people don't give a damn and will most likely do it again given the chance. Others I know will put in spoiler codes and will do so to be polite.

Personally, I'm for dumping a time period and putting in spoilers wherever they are appropriate. As I said before, it's only two mouse clicks at most to get to the spoiler dialogue.
What did I just say about assuming good faith?

Unless these people actually stated that they don't give a damn, I don't think you should be assuming to know their perspective.

And who decides when it is "appropriate" to put in a spoiler? The mods, who've already spoken. If you disagree, I already gave you a suggestion.

You can't make a policy that uses relative terms such as "appropriate" because that allows everyone to draw their own conclusions.
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Old September 11 2013, 08:10 PM   #115
Sran
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

JWolf wrote: View Post
Not 100%. But given some of the attitudes here, I think it's more then a reasonable assumption. There are no apologies for the spoilers and those who posted them do not seem to give a damn.
It's inappropriate for you to assume you know what each person is thinking merely because of what they've posted on a message board. People make mistakes. Not everyone who posts material related to a novel does so with the intent of ruining the book for someone who hasn't read it. Most people in this community are polite and well-intentioned. That you would suggest otherwise without proof is ridiculous.

JWolf wrote:
They use the excuse that because the book is "old" it's OK to toss in spoilers whenever and wherever.
The mods have already decided to go with six months as a reasonable period of time in which the spoiler tags should be used. It's not for you to continue arguing that the policy should be changed. The time for dissent and debate is before a decision is made. Not after.

JWolf wrote: View Post
I base what I say on the actions of others. There are some that have spoiled things in ways that have have no been done. Those people don't give a damn and will most likely do it again given the chance. Others I know will put in spoiler codes and will do so to be polite.
Again, it's inappropriate to assume that people are intentionally trying to spoil a book because they didn't use the spoiler codes. You cannot prove that a particular poster purposely failed to use the correct tags in his or her post. Making unfounded accusations isn't going to win you any friends around here.

JWolf wrote:
Personally, I'm for dumping a time period and putting in spoilers wherever they are appropriate. As I said before, it's only two mouse clicks at most to get to the spoiler dialogue.
You've made this clear. But the mods have already made their decision. It's not for you to continue questioning or criticizing the decision. If you believe the decision was inappropriate, I'd suggest polling other members to see what they think is fair. If the data contradicts what the moderator staff has chosen, you can present your data as a reason why the policy should be changed.

DonIago wrote: View Post
What did I just say about assuming good faith?

Unless these people actually stated that they don't give a damn, I don't think you should be assuming to know their perspective.

And who decides when it is "appropriate" to put in a spoiler? The mods, who've already spoken. If you disagree, I already gave you a suggestion.

You can't make a policy that uses relative terms such as "appropriate" because that allows everyone to draw their own conclusions.
This post captures my feelings on this subject precisely. The moderators have made a decision that they believe is reasonable. It would seem that there are members of this forum who disagree, but none of them have been able to present any evidence to suggest that a new policy should be implemented. They've merely been repeating the same argument over and over again as though they believe repeatedly trying to force the square peg into the round hole will eventually make a difference. What was it Einstein said about insanity? I think we're seeing an interesting illustration of his point on this board.

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Old September 12 2013, 07:05 AM   #116
JD
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

JWolf wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
I'd say if you really think it's a valid issue then you should poll the userbase asking whether they feel 6 months is a reasonable timeframe. I might recommend proposing other timeframes as well.

Not that it will necessarily lead to a policy revision, as that's up to the mods, but at least then you could point to the poll as an indicator of what people would prefer to see in a spoiler policy.

Until then I think you might come across more favorably if you made more of an effort to assume good faith of your fellow posters.
I base what I say on the actions of others. There are some that have spoiled things in ways that have have no been done. Those people don't give a damn and will most likely do it again given the chance. Others I know will put in spoiler codes and will do so to be polite.

Personally, I'm for dumping a time period and putting in spoilers wherever they are appropriate. As I said before, it's only two mouse clicks at most to get to the spoiler dialogue.
And you wonder why people don't take you seriously?
Just from what I've seen around here I can pretty much guarantee you that every time someone has posted a spoiler without tagging it, they were not doing it to purposefully spoil a book for other people. Every time I've seen it happen it's been for one of 3 reasons:
1)They didn't think it was a spoiler
2)They didn't know how to use the spoiler code
3)The spoiler code didn't work and the poster didn't realize it until it was already posted
And most of the time when #2 has happened the poster has said something along the lines of "THIS IS A SPOILER, BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW TO CODE IT".
Can you provide one definite example of someone maliciously posting spoilers in order to "ruin it" for other readers? I don't remember ever coming across that in the entire time I've posted here. And this is not rhetorical, I want a real concrete example.
I'm one of the people who agrees with the six month rule, and maybe I've developed a persecution complex, but I got the distinct feeling that some of what you've said was directed at me.
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Old September 12 2013, 10:29 AM   #117
Deano2099
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

Sran wrote: View Post

The mods have already decided to go with six months as a reasonable period of time in which the spoiler tags should be used. It's not for you to continue arguing that the policy should be changed. The time for dissent and debate is before a decision is made. Not after.
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Old September 12 2013, 10:32 AM   #118
Deano2099
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

JD wrote: View Post
Just from what I've seen around here I can pretty much guarantee you that every time someone has posted a spoiler without tagging it, they were not doing it to purposefully spoil a book for other people. Every time I've seen it happen it's been for one of 3 reasons:
1)They didn't think it was a spoiler
2)They didn't know how to use the spoiler code
3)The spoiler code didn't work and the poster didn't realize it until it was already posted
And most of the time when #2 has happened the poster has said something along the lines of "THIS IS A SPOILER, BUT I DON'T KNOW HOW TO CODE IT".
Can you provide one definite example of someone maliciously posting spoilers in order to "ruin it" for other readers? I don't remember ever coming across that in the entire time I've posted here. And this is not rhetorical, I want a real concrete example.
I'm one of the people who agrees with the six month rule, and maybe I've developed a persecution complex, but I got the distinct feeling that some of what you've said was directed at me.
You're right, but as far as I'm aware that's because in the past these spoilers got reported and fixed by mods. I'm acting on the assumption here that this will no longer happen, as it's no longer breaking any rules. Nor will it happen if someone posts a spoiler for reasons 1, 2 or 3.
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Old September 12 2013, 10:40 AM   #119
Deano2099
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

Scout101 wrote: View Post
Sure, try and keep the discussion relevent to the thread topic, to give people a chance to avoid spoilers by skipping the threads they're behind on. But at some point, if you're that far behind, it's on YOU to stay out of ANY thread that's past what you've read.

Decent rule of thumb, anyway: if you're behind, don't read a thread for ANYTHING that was released after your current reading point. No matter what series. Because there's a lot of bleed-over (mostly in TNG era, obviously), so things may come out. If you're 5 years behind, may want to avoid everything other than the release listing thread...
And like I've said, if that's the board you want to run then fine. But a bit of consideration and you wouldn't have driven away people like me and many others (this board is much smaller than it used to be) that can't be up to date on everything. But then seeing the reaction of many people to being so much as asked to show a small amount of consideration for other people is enough to put most people off wanting to be part of this 'community' anyway. Regardless of if they want to know what happens to
at the end of The Fall or not.

Last edited by Deano2099; September 12 2013 at 10:57 AM.
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Old September 12 2013, 12:18 PM   #120
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

if absolutely everything is spoiler coded, and it's limited to just thumbs up/down, would there be a community worth saving? If the community can't talk about the new book that most of us just read, what's the point? We ALREADY take steps to protect the late arrivals, but at some point, something has to give. JWolf wants to use Destiny as an example, but if you can't even talk about a book that came out 5 years ago without spoiler Nazis complaining about not coding things, what's left to discuss? That book was forever ago, and if you're ~30 books behind, do you have reasonable expectations of ever catching up? If you do, religiously following a forum where people are years ahead of you is a BAD idea. Or only search out threads for books you've completed. Going past that is on YOU, you took a risk KNOWING the thread was past your reading level. How much consideration should others take that someone else will purposely damage themselves and blame us for it?

Why is personal responsibility not a consideration, and it's on everyone else to watch out for YOU? Consider the Trek Lit forum the first level of spoiler code. Go past that, you take a small risk of seeing something you don't want to. Go past THAT and click a link to a spoiler review thread for a book you haven't read? Not much we could do to save you there. The big spoilers, even in there, are often coded. Short of coding the entire forum, what more do you want? And then you'd just click on that and blame us for not being cryptic enough anyway...

How have we driven you away, if you're still posting in here prolifically? And for bashing people for not knowing how to use spoiler code, seems you should learn to multi-quote.
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