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Old September 10 2013, 12:12 AM   #91
JWolf
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

Halliwell wrote: View Post
I'm the one that mentioned DTI: Watching The Clock in that thread. First, while it is an event that took place within the book, that particular instance was one small thread and while entertaining, doesn't affect the over all story. A fact you would know if you actually read the book.
But for those that have not yet read the book, they don't know that's a small spoiler. It does sound possible to be a big spoiler. You should be looking at thing from the point of view of someone who has not read the book and maybe any of the books following.

The thing is, we do get people coming here asking what to read/where to start reading. So those people are not caught up. There are people who prefer to read a series in it's entirety whenever possible and maybe The Fall is something they are waiting to be finished before starting it. So while the first book could easily become more then six months old for these people, it's new to them and spoiling book one because you can is just wrong (IMHO).

The way it's been until the latest book has been that spoiler codes have been used for proper spoilers. So, someone that has been keeping up here would think that would be the same for the latest book. But no, someone had to go and botch that. I know the book's thread has (Spoilers!) in this, but still, I don't feel that revealing a major plot point out in the open is appropriate. As it's been, anytime I've read a big enough spoiler for a new book, it's been at my doing, not because someone doesn't know how to use spoiler codes. And even if we did manage to go past the message's spoiler, others went to let it go out in the open with NO WARNING! That to me is rather rude.

So please, be careful with spoilers and spoiler codes regardless of a book's age. If you started the thread and big enough spoilers do get loose, go back to your original thread and edit it to say so or get a moderator to do so. Then it won't be an issue. Because as long as the 1st message has not spoilers and does warn that there are spoilers, then you are OK.

All it takes is two mouse clicks to get to the spoiler dialog.
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Old September 10 2013, 12:27 AM   #92
Shane Houston
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

JWolf wrote: View Post
Halliwell wrote: View Post
I'm the one that mentioned DTI: Watching The Clock in that thread. First, while it is an event that took place within the book, that particular instance was one small thread and while entertaining, doesn't affect the over all story. A fact you would know if you actually read the book.
But for those that have not yet read the book, they don't know that's a small spoiler. It does sound possible to be a big spoiler. You should be looking at thing from the point of view of someone who has not read the book and maybe any of the books following.

The thing is, we do get people coming here asking what to read/where to start reading. So those people are not caught up. There are people who prefer to read a series in it's entirety whenever possible and maybe The Fall is something they are waiting to be finished before starting it. So while the first book could easily become more then six months old for these people, it's new to them and spoiling book one because you can is just wrong (IMHO).

The way it's been until the latest book has been that spoiler codes have been used for proper spoilers. So, someone that has been keeping up here would think that would be the same for the latest book. But no, someone had to go and botch that. I know the book's thread has (Spoilers!) in this, but still, I don't feel that revealing a major plot point out in the open is appropriate. As it's been, anytime I've read a big enough spoiler for a new book, it's been at my doing, not because someone doesn't know how to use spoiler codes. And even if we did manage to go past the message's spoiler, others went to let it go out in the open with NO WARNING! That to me is rather rude.

So please, be careful with spoilers and spoiler codes regardless of a book's age. If you started the thread and big enough spoilers do get loose, go back to your original thread and edit it to say so or get a moderator to do so. Then it won't be an issue. Because as long as the 1st message has not spoilers and does warn that there are spoilers, then you are OK.

All it takes is two mouse clicks to get to the spoiler dialog.
You want spoiler dialog? I'll give you one.

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Old September 10 2013, 12:58 AM   #93
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

JWolf wrote: View Post
All it takes is two mouse clicks to get to the spoiler dialog.
And all it takes is no mouse clicks to not look at novel thread. Seriously, shut the hell up already!

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Old September 10 2013, 03:36 AM   #94
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

JWolf wrote: View Post
Halliwell wrote: View Post
I'm the one that mentioned DTI: Watching The Clock in that thread. First, while it is an event that took place within the book, that particular instance was one small thread and while entertaining, doesn't affect the over all story. A fact you would know if you actually read the book.
But for those that have not yet read the book, they don't know that's a small spoiler. It does sound possible to be a big spoiler. You should be looking at thing from the point of view of someone who has not read the book and maybe any of the books following.

The thing is, we do get people coming here asking what to read/where to start reading. So those people are not caught up. There are people who prefer to read a series in it's entirety whenever possible and maybe The Fall is something they are waiting to be finished before starting it. So while the first book could easily become more then six months old for these people, it's new to them and spoiling book one because you can is just wrong (IMHO).
I think most people here are intelligent enough not to post spoilers without warning in a thread asking about reading something, or if the OP has made it clear they have not read all of the book. I've been here for a while now, and other than the occaisional mistake I don't remember coming across any cases of someone just purposefully posting spoilers. It might have happened, but not often enough for me to remember, which means it probably it's even common enough to be that it would call for a change in spoiler policy.
The way it's been until the latest book has been that spoiler codes have been used for proper spoilers. So, someone that has been keeping up here would think that would be the same for the latest book. But no, someone had to go and botch that. I know the book's thread has (Spoilers!) in this, but still, I don't feel that revealing a major plot point out in the open is appropriate. As it's been, anytime I've read a big enough spoiler for a new book, it's been at my doing, not because someone doesn't know how to use spoiler codes. And even if we did manage to go past the message's spoiler, others went to let it go out in the open with NO WARNING! That to me is rather rude.
As long as it's a spoiler thread, then you have then you really can't criticize some for posting spoilers.
So please, be careful with spoilers and spoiler codes regardless of a book's age. If you started the thread and big enough spoilers do get loose, go back to your original thread and edit it to say so or get a moderator to do so. Then it won't be an issue. Because as long as the 1st message has not spoilers and does warn that there are spoilers, then you are OK.

All it takes is two mouse clicks to get to the spoiler dialog.
Honestly, I'm behind by at least a year or too (the most recent book I have read is Raise the Dawn) and I am aware of the presence of spoilers, and I don't care about them. But I really don't see where it would be that hard to remain relatively spoiler free if I wanted to be. If you want to avoid spoilers you just need to be careful and watch what threads you go into.
Everyone else shouldn't have to worry about a small handful of us who aren't caught up. You just have to realize that spoilers are a possibility if you are going to come to a place like this. It's ridiculous to expect everyone to code everything about a 6m old + book just in case someone in the thread hasn't read the book being discussed yet.
Now if the book is less than 6 months old, then yes anything mentioned outside of the spoiler thread should be coded, but after that then people just need to be careful.
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Old September 10 2013, 07:36 AM   #95
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

JD wrote: View Post
I've been here for a while now, and other than the occaisional mistake I don't remember coming across any cases of someone just purposefully posting spoilers. It might have happened, but not often enough for me to remember...
The Mods have probably fixed it before you enter the thread. People are fast to use the "Report" icon.

There have certainly been a few incidents over the years, in which someone mentions they have yet to read a certain older book, and is it worth reading, and people jump in and spill all the contents, then defend themselves by saying that it's "an old book".

Of course, for those of us who've already read the book, such an incident doesn't cause personal concern, and it barely hits our radar.
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Old September 10 2013, 01:25 PM   #96
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

Sran wrote: View Post
JWolf wrote: View Post
All it takes is two mouse clicks to get to the spoiler dialog.
And all it takes is no mouse clicks to not look at novel thread. Seriously, shut the hell up already!

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Old September 10 2013, 01:28 PM   #97
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
There have certainly been a few incidents over the years, in which someone mentions they have yet to read a certain older book, and is it worth reading, and people jump in and spill all the contents, then defend themselves by saying that it's "an old book".
Well that's just unpleasant behaviour, and definitely against the rules of how we handle spoilers.

To be clear, if someone starts a thread and says they haven't read a particular book and asks opinions on it, then within that thread that book needs to be spoiler coded - doesn't matter how old it is.
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Old September 10 2013, 03:48 PM   #98
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

I'm very behind on my Trek novels and I've had no problems avoiding spoilers other than the one already mentioned in this thread.

I think most here are very considerate when posting spoilers.
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Old September 10 2013, 04:15 PM   #99
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

Scout101 wrote: View Post
Deano2099 wrote: View Post
Just suggesting there be a 'don't be a prat' rule.
Don't be a Prat is a good life rule in general, do we really need to formally document it? And if someone decides to ignore it, does a warning on a message board really deter them? We can create rules until it's impossible to interact at all here, but why? And for whatever rule/length of time you choose, there's someone further behind than you, so even when you eventually catch up, you can't discuss the book either...
Exactly, which is why I think setting any sort of time limit is silly. What rules would I implement:

1) If a thread has the name of a novel and SPOILERS, it means spoilers for that book and any directly preceding it in that series.

2) Any significant spoilers for other books should be spoiler tagged. If it becomes obvious that some books are closely connected, then the *first* person that has to spoil a book puts it in spoiler code and puts a note "Okay, it's clear this is linked to Immortal Coil, so there will be spoilers for that forthcoming" - at that point, no-one else needs to spoiler tag, as there's been a chance for people to stop reading.

3) A thread that is started with a generic name and SPOILERS can contain un-tagged spoilers for anything regardless of publication date.

4) A thread with a generic name and no SPOILER tag should have major spoilers tagged regardless of publication date, UNLESS the original poster says in the first post "there's going to be spoilers for X, Y and Z here.

To be honest, that's basically how it used to be without any policing anyway. My problem with this formal 6 month policy (and I'm not sure where that came from) is that previously, if someone spoiled something big, someone would report the post and a mod could drop a note to the user asking them not to do that and spoiler code that out. It seems that now this won't happen, as it isn't breaking the rules - and I remember seeing a mod defense of having a certain DS9 spoiler in a thread title, which is when I gave up on the board.

The majority of people here are capable of just being sensible and considerate about this, but there's a couple, some on this thread, that have made it quite clear that they'll only do something when told to by a mod, and if the mod says you can spoil with impunity anything older than six months, then they'll jolly well do that and who the hell are you to ask them to do otherwise.
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Old September 11 2013, 12:08 AM   #100
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

Deano2099 wrote: View Post
To be honest, that's basically how it used to be without any policing anyway. My problem with this formal 6 month policy (and I'm not sure where that came from) is that previously, if someone spoiled something big, someone would report the post and a mod could drop a note to the user asking them not to do that and spoiler code that out. It seems that now this won't happen, as it isn't breaking the rules - and I remember seeing a mod defense of having a certain DS9 spoiler in a thread title, which is when I gave up on the board.

The majority of people here are capable of just being sensible and considerate about this, but there's a couple, some on this thread, that have made it quite clear that they'll only do something when told to by a mod, and if the mod says you can spoil with impunity anything older than six months, then they'll jolly well do that and who the hell are you to ask them to do otherwise.
It came about because some people complained when I said we needed spoiler codes when we did need spoiler codes. It would have been polite to just apologize, go back, add the spoiler codes and move on. But they had to complain and now we have this silly six month rule which for a lot of people is way too short a time. (IMHO), I'd stick with use spoiler codes and forgot a time limit.

We used to have politeness in that big/major spoilers were tagged and rightly so. Now we have people who come here and use the excuse that they don't know how to use spoiler codes so spoilers be darned. That's how a major spoiler for Revelation and Dust came into being. Then once that got out, others decided to also spoil that same spoiler in case anyone happened to miss it. I know the thread says (Spoilers!), but history has shown that spoilers of any magnitude were in spoiler codes for new books.

If this is the way it's going to be from now on, I do think a lot of people won't be coming to read about the new books until they've finished reading. I like reading that people are looking forward to reading the new book. But if you go into the thread and get spoiled outright because someone is too lazy (or rude) to use spoiler codes, that sort of thing won't happen.

Please, don't spoil when you don't have to. Use spoiler codes. Be friendly to the next person reading that thread that may not have read that book or read to the part yet. Also, please don't make thread topics that are spoilery as that is not possible to not read other then not coming here.
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Old September 11 2013, 12:34 AM   #101
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

If you're going to discuss politeness, it doesn't seem very polite to me to cast others' disagreements with you in phrases such as "they had to complain", suggesting their concerns were without merit.

People have the right to discuss concerns they have with the mods. Sorry it boomeranged on you, but it sounds like you created the situation to begin with by scolding another member.
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Old September 11 2013, 01:14 AM   #102
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

DonIago wrote: View Post
If you're going to discuss politeness, it doesn't seem very polite to me to cast others' disagreements with you in phrases such as "they had to complain", suggesting their concerns were without merit.

People have the right to discuss concerns they have with the mods. Sorry it boomeranged on you, but it sounds like you created the situation to begin with by scolding another member.
It didn't boomerang on me. It boomeranged on US. Now we have this six months rule that makes it open season on book spoiling.
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Old September 11 2013, 03:47 AM   #103
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

You mean the rule that most of the posters here don't seem to have a problem with?
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Old September 11 2013, 12:01 PM   #104
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

JWolf wrote: View Post
That's how a major spoiler for Revelation and Dust came into being.
In a SPOILER thread. Which was also a REVIEW thread. To be blunt, what kind of idiot reads a thread CLEARLY tagged as such if they haven't read the book yet, and have a problem with spoilers? That wound is completely self-inflicted. If you don't have the willpower or sense of mind to avoid something that obvious, there's nothing anyone could do to save you from yourself. You'd likely end up accidentally reading the Wikipedia summary next...

How about a little personal responsibility here?

Something big happened in that book, and you have a problem with people discussing it in a thread marked Review AND Spoiler? How do you imagine this forum should work? Everything hidden behind spoiler tags? I'd wager a paycheck that that would kill the forum much faster than this perceived injustice. You have a problem with the time limit, so can't discuss anything about anything, as it's likely a spoiler for something in this new unified timeline.

Why not just lock every thread when it starts, and just make the review thread a thumbs up/down voting thread? Or would too many thumbs up or down spoil the book?

Come on. People need to not intentionally be dicks in here, but you're WAY too far on the other end of that spectrum. Gotta take some personal responsibility. Reasonable efforts were made to warn people, and if they blew through that, it's on them.

How about in the future, you consider the TrekLit forum link the first level of spoiler tag? If you click that, it exposes you to the chance to be only one click away from spoilers. If you are allergic, don't click the first link unless you're caught up.

In general, since the books are tied together, it's pretty safe that if you're not up to date, you shouldn't click on anything past where you've read, as it likely mentions the points that LED to where that book went as well. Again, shouldn't have to mention that, but since you brought up a non-spoiler that was more than 2 years old, seems that you needed to hear it again. We continue to debate the definition of spoiler here as well. IMO, it should have to, you know, SPOIL the book if you know that info. minor, non-plot items aren't spoilers. If you know the twist to Sixth Sense before you watch it, that's a spoiler. Knowing that the movie has Bruce Willis in it is not. Even knowing that the kid sees ghosts isn't really a spoiler. They even show it in the preview. So if you want to go off on spoilers, they need to be big, and even plot-related. Not knowing whether that applies is NOT a defense to go off on everyone. If they say it wasn't a big deal, maybe it wasn't? (the DTI one, not the TF:R&D one). You're making EVERYTHING a spoiler, which means you can't discuss anything on a discussion board. Doesn't really work.

Why would you read a spoiler thread for a book you haven't read yet? Especially if you're a few books behind, and haven't read the books leading UP to it yet either?

If this is the way it's going to be from now on, I do think a lot of people won't be coming to read about the new books until they've finished reading.
I know you intended that as some sort of dire warning, but I kinda interpret that as, well, duh. You SHOULDN'T read threads about books you haven't read yet if you're allergic to any spoiler, no matter how minor. Why is that bad? That's how it SHOULD work!

I like reading that people are looking forward to reading the new book. But if you go into the thread and get spoiled outright because someone is too lazy (or rude) to use spoiler codes, that sort of thing won't happen.
Again, why are you in the SPOILER REVIEW thread if that bothers you? Stick to threads for books you've read, or don't intend to.

Also, please don't make thread topics that are spoilery as that is not possible to not read other then not coming here.
ONLY thing you've said that I agree with. And so does everyone else, as no one's fighting you here. And mods fix it when it happens, so not sure why you even brought this up.
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Old September 11 2013, 12:57 PM   #105
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Re: Spoilers in Books: A Discussion.

As the person who inadvertantly kicked this off and then asked for clarification, I'd like to suggest that common sense be exercised along with whatever time limit we work to.

I like it on here and don't want to spoil the atmosphere. People have strong views but it would be a shame if this er, spoiled things. Lets take some if the heat out of the discussion. This isn't TNZ.

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