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Old August 30 2013, 04:25 AM   #166
blssdwlf
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Praetor wrote: View Post
Well, first of all, that's exactly why I think of the DS9 shots with a grain of salt. Completely agreed there.

Second of all, it appears that the original stock shots are at a different scale from the later ones.

Consider this from "Farpoint"--


versus this from "Tin Man"--


It appears the shot has been purposefully altered. One might conclude that it was to correct the scale, but then again it might simply be that they didn't like the previous shot for other reasons.
I don't think space shots like those can be used for scaling because we don't know where the ships are. Unlike two ships on water where you can at least lock them down on the water surface plane, there isn't a way to do this in these shots as the scaling is uncertain as well.

Are there any shots of the Excelsior (and sister ships) docked to something and another ship docked to same? You could use what they are docked to as a reference scale.
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Old August 30 2013, 04:46 AM   #167
Workbee
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Workbee wrote: View Post

On an unrelated note, I did find an aft view of Excelsior showing the glowing shuttle bay thing in TVH:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tvhhd0293.jpg
Hey and the starbase door is big enough to let the Excelsior out!
Yes! It fits and it's cannon!
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Old August 30 2013, 10:33 AM   #168
Robert Comsol
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Workbee wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Workbee wrote: View Post

On an unrelated note, I did find an aft view of Excelsior showing the glowing shuttle bay thing in TVH:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tvhhd0293.jpg
Hey and the starbase door is big enough to let the Excelsior out!
Yes! It fits and it's canon!
Or it's just a smaller cousin of the Excelsior (like with the Klingon Bird of Prey, the Oberth Class etc.)

Bob
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Old August 30 2013, 11:51 AM   #169
Mario de Monti
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Workbee wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post

Hey and the starbase door is big enough to let the Excelsior out!
Yes! It fits and it's canon!
Or it's just a smaller cousin of the Excelsior (like with the Klingon Bird of Prey, the Oberth Class etc.)

Bob
It certainly looks that way in that shot!
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Old August 30 2013, 02:38 PM   #170
137th Gebirg
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Praetor wrote: View Post
Well, first of all, that's exactly why I think of the DS9 shots with a grain of salt. Completely agreed there.

Second of all, it appears that the original stock shots are at a different scale from the later ones.

Consider this from "Farpoint"--


versus this from "Tin Man"--


It appears the shot has been purposefully altered. One might conclude that it was to correct the scale, but then again it might simply be that they didn't like the previous shot for other reasons.
I get the impression that the first shot is actually the remastered HD version of Farpoint. The latter Tin Man shot is actually a stock re-use of the original SD Farpoint footage. And reshooting the exact same two ships, flying the exact same formation in a slightly different way does not make sense from a financial standpoint. I don't think we're seeing a difference in how the miniature was filmed here, rather I think the first one is all CG and the second one is the original.

Edit: Yep, here's the original SD (DVD) version of the Farpoint footage. You can see it's identical to the SD version of the Tin Man scene, but with the planet included.
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Old August 30 2013, 03:41 PM   #171
Workbee
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Good catch.... the recompositing process in the TNG-HD could likely lead to small scaling issues. Not that I have serious complaints -- it is a massive arduous process CBS and others have undertaken.

This does beg the question, just how accurately can they scale composite images? Are they able to get down to a micron or is it more of an approximation that is just roughly "eyeballed." I don't know enough about the process, but I wonder if it is even possible to size these images with the precision needed for accurate scaling.

With regards to what ILM did, I think they also provided just the raw element of the Excelsior in EoF. So for future appearances in TNG, the producers had a choice of just reusing the footage from EoF with the E-D and Excelsior already together in frame, or use the raw Excelsior footage to do a whole new composite. I am not sure which of these they did from episode to episode, though for TNG-HD I imagine that they were recomposited more often because of how the seasons were farmed out to different companies.
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Old August 30 2013, 04:03 PM   #172
Praetor
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Workbee wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Workbee wrote: View Post

On an unrelated note, I did find an aft view of Excelsior showing the glowing shuttle bay thing in TVH:

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tvhhd0293.jpg
Hey and the starbase door is big enough to let the Excelsior out!
Yes! It fits and it's cannon!
Fantastic catch!

Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Workbee wrote: View Post

Yes! It fits and it's canon!
Or it's just a smaller cousin of the Excelsior (like with the Klingon Bird of Prey, the Oberth Class etc.)

Bob
It certainly looks that way in that shot!
"Starships in mirror may be smaller than they appear."

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
I get the impression that the first shot is actually the remastered HD version of Farpoint. The latter Tin Man shot is actually a stock re-use of the original SD Farpoint footage. And reshooting the exact same two ships, flying the exact same formation in a slightly different way does not make sense from a financial standpoint. I don't think we're seeing a difference in how the miniature was filmed here, rather I think the first one is all CG and the second one is the original.

Edit: Yep, here's the original SD (DVD) version of the Farpoint footage. You can see it's identical to the SD version of the Tin Man scene, but with the planet included.
Ah, crap. Thanks for catching that. Throwing the HD version out, and going by the original, she seems smaller to me... or at least of sufficiently ambiguous size to go either direction.

Workbee wrote: View Post
This does beg the question, just how accurately can they scale composite images? Are they able to get down to a micron or is it more of an approximation that is just roughly "eyeballed." I don't know enough about the process, but I wonder if it is even possible to size these images with the precision needed for accurate scaling.
I don't know as much as some might, but I know with CGI, a lot of it is contingent on what scale the models were made. If they were made to the same scale, fine, it's easy. If they weren't, it's INCREDIBLY easy to just get it wrong, actually even moreso than it was in the physical miniature days.

Workbee wrote: View Post
With regards to what ILM did, I think they also provided just the raw element of the Excelsior in EoF. So for future appearances in TNG, the producers had a choice of just reusing the footage from EoF with the E-D and Excelsior already together in frame, or use the raw Excelsior footage to do a whole new composite. I am not sure which of these they did from episode to episode, though for TNG-HD I imagine that they were recomposited more often because of how the seasons were farmed out to different companies.
I suspect you're probably right on those counts.
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Old August 30 2013, 04:16 PM   #173
137th Gebirg
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Here's my 2 cubits' worth on ship scales in different mediums:
  • Physical models - VERY problematic. They all need to be filmed separately, with multiple passes and composited in a generally "eyeballed" fashion. Scales can be arbitrary and overly flexible. The amazing shrinking/expanding Klingon Bird of Prey is probably the most infamous example in all of Star Trek. Despite ILM's best efforts, nothing ever seemed quite right from scene to scene.
  • CG models: So long as the research is done up front to establish consistent scales, everything can be rendered simultaneously, easily and accurately. If an error in size is found, it can be easily rescaled and re-rendered with a couple clicks of a mouse button.
While I prefer the "look" of physical models over CG, I would personally choose CG as a means to proper scaling, all day long.
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Old August 30 2013, 04:22 PM   #174
Praetor
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Location: The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Interesting. I tend to agree with you regarding physical vs. digital. Thanks for shedding extra light on that.
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Old August 30 2013, 08:12 PM   #175
Workbee
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Which, unfortunately as far as the optical/photochemical effects are concerned, we will have to accept them with some degree of license on scale. Much as we are to assume there is actually nothing wrong with the moon's orbit in E.T. We know Excelsior is bigger than the Enterprise refit. We know it is smaller than the Enterprise D. Somehow first two fit through the space doors.
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Old August 30 2013, 10:02 PM   #176
Praetor
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Location: The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Alright so, I think I have a plan to resolve this.

I think I'm going to do the revised comparisons I mentioned earlier (Enterprise to Excelsior, particularly) to see how that stacks up.

Then:
1) Deck alignment based on ILM model (which will probably end up matching King's 622 meters)
2) Deck alignment based on Jein model
3) Deck alignment based on 467 meters
4) Deck alignment based on 622 meters

And then throw in some major components and compare. I'd like to put this guy to bed. I feel like we now know for certain the scales of the ILM and Jein models, although we just haven't exactly put numbers to them.

The remaining question that I hope to answer, of course, is what is the real size?
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Old August 31 2013, 12:30 AM   #177
Workbee
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Followed of course, by the next most important questions: Did the Excelsior bridge in TSFS have those chasing lights under the viewscreen?
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Old August 31 2013, 03:03 AM   #178
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Naturally.
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Old August 31 2013, 08:02 PM   #179
Robert Comsol
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Workbee wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post

Hey and the starbase door is big enough to let the Excelsior out!
Yes! It fits and it's canon!
Or it's just a smaller cousin of the Excelsior (like with the Klingon Bird of Prey, the Oberth Class etc.)
On second thought: What we saw in ST IV is the bigger spacedock type we also saw in TNG.

If its space doors are big enough to have the Enterprise-D pass through than passage of an Excelsior Class Starship should be child's play.

Bob
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Old September 4 2013, 06:52 PM   #180
Herkimer Jitty
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Re: Scaling the Excelsior Filming Model

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
What is this good for and what's the purpose of these upper embayments anyway? I've made a suggestion, let's hear some others.
In TOS and TMP, sensors seem to be housed in the saucer domes, but TNG-beyond sensor setups are bays or trenches cut into the hull with greebly bits in them. Might the Miranda's greebly bays be an early form of a TNG-style sensor setup?

And could the greebly cutouts on the front of the Excelsior's neck be similar gear?
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