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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old August 17 2013, 12:10 PM   #91
MacLeod
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Why not just use the transwarp hub that exits near Earth send a dozen cubes through and assimilate Earth.
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Old August 17 2013, 01:03 PM   #92
Brit
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
The episode that ruined the Borg in Voyager was Dark Frontier. Giving the Borg Queen that freaky dominatrix-mommy personality and making her willing to negotiate with people completely reversed everything established about the Borg.

What didn't really make sense about the Borg was the number of Borg cubes. If one was enough to almost destroy the Federation, the thousands they had should have conquered the entire quadrant. Either that or all the worlds around borg space should have been much stronger than the Federation.
There are supposed to be something like ten billion Earth-type planets in our galaxy. The Borg could be expanding out and assimilating a thousand worlds a day and it's still take hundreds of years for them to reach the Federation space in full force.
According to canon, (Voyager Sixth Season - Dragon's Teeth)

"GEDRIN: You're Borg.
SEVEN: How do you know that?
GEDRIN: Don't you recognize my people? The Vaadwaur?
SEVEN: The Collective's memory from nine hundred years ago is fragmentary.
GEDRIN: I've had many encounters with your kind."

"GEDRIN: That star cluster in grid fourteen twenty one? Nearly half the planets are inhabitable.
SEVEN: Unfortunately they are already occupied, by the Borg.
GEDRIN: The Borg? In my century they'd only assimilated a handful of systems. It looks like they've spread through the quadrant like a plague. No offence."

Looks like they did a lot in a few years.
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Old August 17 2013, 01:05 PM   #93
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

1. The Borg are not redundant.

They're not going to send ten cubes when one should do.

Because the Borg are not aggressive.

They don't invade.

they invite.

By their logic everyone wants to be Borg.

It's a gift.

They shouldn't need any guns at all.

Which is why the drones arn't armed probably.

2. The Borg have standards.

They don't want to assimilate everyone.

Only the truly awesome, who will make them even more awesomer.

Everyone else who sucks, is mostly safe.
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Old August 17 2013, 02:12 PM   #94
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Brit wrote: View Post

This is pretty good at telling what is wrong in your opinion, except that wasn't the question. I ask why do you want the Borg to be so powerful in the first place. What is there about this particular group of beings that sets them above even the series heroes?
It's not about what I want. It's about the factual premise on which they were introduced in the show. Q wanted to show Picard a race that was beyond them in every measurable sense, that they weren't ready. Picard had to beg Q to save them. When they returned a single ship destroyed a whole fleet without blinking an eye. So that's what the Borg were supposed to be.

Yet Voyager effortlessly dodges entire fleets of them, engages them routinely, and steals whatever plot devices they need for this week's episode from them. Voyager turned them little more into the lumbering dumb giant, and a convenient tech depot. If they wanted that, they should've introduced a new race instead of fundamentally changing an old one.
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Old August 17 2013, 02:16 PM   #95
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Why not just use the transwarp hub that exits near Earth send a dozen cubes through and assimilate Earth.
Yeah, that exit point that Voyager used in Endgame that conveniently led right to Earth sure would've been useful in Best of Both Worlds or First Contact.
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Old August 17 2013, 02:17 PM   #96
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
2. The Borg have standards.

They don't want to assimilate everyone.

Only the truly awesome, who will make them even more awesomer.

Everyone else who sucks, is mostly safe.
This doesn't make much sense to me. Even if you're physically weak they can enhance you. A drone is a drone. The Kazon not being good enough isn't explained properly.. do they have some physiological flaw that makes them a liability? Sure we can say they aren't that bright but how much IQ does a drone need anyway?
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Old August 17 2013, 02:41 PM   #97
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Guy's comments make a lot of sense. I've always thought of the Borg as technology gone wrong. At the Collective's heart is a machine mentality, and the Queen is the mouth piece, the one who speaks. She translates for the machine, and what ever persona she projects is one deemed suitable by the machine. This machine has billions of memories, feelings, desires, and ambitions locked up in it's vinculums and yet neither the machine or its drones understand any of it. This is the great flaw in the Borg and it has been since the beginning when we were only aware of cubes and drones. The flaw was not as complex at first, but it was always there. Think of this, in TNG they didn't even understand that they needed to protect themselves from the simple command of sleep.


JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
The episode that ruined the Borg in Voyager was Dark Frontier. Giving the Borg Queen that freaky dominatrix-mommy personality and making her willing to negotiate with people completely reversed everything established about the Borg.
I do understand the dominatrix persona and that some might not like it, but I find nothing wrong with that plot line. However I am somewhat insulted that you seem to think being a Mommy is a bad thing. Even in this day and time a sizeable majority of human females aspire to that designation, and a whole lot more have earned that designation and are very proud of it.

Hon, I really hate to break this to you but being a Mommy is mostly a very good thing.

I don't think any of this reversed a canon thing although it may have reversed some assumptions by part of the audience. The only reason the Queen agreed to work with Janeway on Janeway's terms is because just like Davy Jones in The Pirates of the Caribbean, Janeway had two cannon pointed at the Borg's heart. That's really blackmail not negation.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
What didn't really make sense about the Borg was the number of Borg cubes. If one was enough to almost destroy the Federation, the thousands they had should have conquered the entire quadrant. Either that or all the worlds around borg space should have been much stronger than the Federation.
Why would that be true, it may very well be (and there is some canon evidence to this fact) that the Delta Quadrant species had spent years studying and evading the Borg because they were a familiar enemy, in much the same way as the Federation became more adapt in defeating the Borg themselves.

Guy is right, they only send one cube because it never occurred to them that they might need more. That's a flaw, it shows the lack of creative thinking, and that is why all Borg roads lead to oblivion.
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Old August 17 2013, 02:51 PM   #98
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

R. Star wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post

This is pretty good at telling what is wrong in your opinion, except that wasn't the question. I ask why do you want the Borg to be so powerful in the first place. What is there about this particular group of beings that sets them above even the series heroes?
It's not about what I want. It's about the factual premise on which they were introduced in the show. Q wanted to show Picard a race that was beyond them in every measurable sense, that they weren't ready. Picard had to beg Q to save them. When they returned a single ship destroyed a whole fleet without blinking an eye. So that's what the Borg were supposed to be.

Yet Voyager effortlessly dodges entire fleets of them, engages them routinely, and steals whatever plot devices they need for this week's episode from them. Voyager turned them little more into the lumbering dumb giant, and a convenient tech depot. If they wanted that, they should've introduced a new race instead of fundamentally changing an old one.
Apparently we were posting at the same time, but yes this is what I was asking for and I see your point. I don't particularly agree with it, but it does make your position make more sense to me. Thanks.
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Old August 17 2013, 06:41 PM   #99
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

GameOn wrote: View Post
It's not that they were encountering the same race all the time but the same individual people. It made no sense when you're supposed to be constantly moving away from them. Having a season long enemy would have been fine if you were encountering different members of that race as they moved through that area of space. The Gift had Kes throw Voyager 10,000 light years clear of Borg space yet they still showed up all the time.
What's wrong with running into the same people? Farscape had them run into Crais and Scorpius and Grayza and no one complained. It's just another case "Damned if you, damned if you don't."

The fleet had engaged with that one cube for at least the last 16 hours.

It's like with opening the pickle jar, you're sweating and grunting for 20 minutes but then that pretentious wanker your sister married taps the lid and it practically falls off.
What about that Sphere the Enterprise destroyed immediately?

Come on even in a war certain areas receive more resources than others
It was never implied anywhere that DS9 got more resources than other war areas.

That's a weak argument, the premise wasn't limited and unsustanainable and even if you except that it was if it was so weak and unsustainable then they should never have ran with it
What the show needed was an actual plot beyond "Lost Ship going home" because that plot could never be resolved without ending the show. Give them something else, like "The 8472 are invading the Universe and Voyager must form a Delta Federation to stop them."

What didn't really make sense about the Borg was the number of Borg cubes. If one was enough to almost destroy the Federation, the thousands they had should have conquered the entire quadrant. Either that or all the worlds around borg space should have been much stronger than the Federation.
The DQ has aliens like the Voth in it as well, like I said there are probably hundreds of aliens in the DQ that could easily annihilate the Borg. So they don't go for outright assimilation because they know they'll end up destroyed. It's only the weaker civilizations they go after.

Why not just use the transwarp hub that exits near Earth send a dozen cubes through and assimilate Earth
They didn't create that particular one until during VOY, at which time it was destroyed.

It's not about what I want. It's about the factual premise on which they were introduced in the show. Q wanted to show Picard a race that was beyond them in every measurable sense, that they weren't ready. Picard had to beg Q to save them. When they returned a single ship destroyed a whole fleet without blinking an eye. So that's what the Borg were supposed to be.
Guinan said that one day the Feds and Borg would be on the same level and be able to reach an understanding, VOY just sped up the process a bit.

If they wanted that, they should've introduced a new race instead of fundamentally changing an old one
VOY's audience made it crystal clear they weren't interested in new aliens. It's why the audience considered it "heresy" when VOY invented an alien race that could defeat the Borg (8472) and the show had to get rid of it.

If the Dominion was a VOY creation, Trek fans would hate the Dominion too.
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Old August 17 2013, 10:36 PM   #100
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

R. Star wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post

This is pretty good at telling what is wrong in your opinion, except that wasn't the question. I ask why do you want the Borg to be so powerful in the first place. What is there about this particular group of beings that sets them above even the series heroes?
It's not about what I want. It's about the factual premise on which they were introduced in the show. Q wanted to show Picard a race that was beyond them in every measurable sense, that they weren't ready. Picard had to beg Q to save them. When they returned a single ship destroyed a whole fleet without blinking an eye. So that's what the Borg were supposed to be in the same fashion. Both sides were ready to blame each other and were actually scared to do so because of the sheer power of the attacks exhibited.

Yet Voyager effortlessly dodges entire fleets of them, engages them routinely, and steals whatever plot devices they need for this week's episode from them. Voyager turned them little more into the lumbering dumb giant, and a convenient tech depot. If they wanted that, they should've introduced a new race instead of fundamentally changing an old one.

I just have to point this out; subtle hints were tossed about that the borg were already looming at the end of Season 1 in TNG in the episode "The Neutral Zone" (S01 - E26). When Picard confronted the Romulans in the Neutral Zone, upon comparing notes, the Enterprise found that the Federation colonies that were destroyed along the neutral zone mirrored Romulan colonies that were destroyed along the neutral zone.

In "Best of Both Worlds", when Riker's team surveyed the colony that was destroyed, it was noted that the colony's destruction mirrored that of the colonies that were destroyed in "The Neutral Zone" (both in episode title and in region).

Q kicking the enterprise to see the Borg wasn't REALLY speeding up the first documented encounter by a few years. If anything, even though it didn't seem like it at the time, Q was actually doing the Federation a BIG FAVOR giving them a chance to actually see who was destroying those colonies in the Neutral Zone so it gave them a true chance to prepare instead of being blindsided by a Borg Cube when it finally would have made its way to Sector 001.

Q, in fact, did Picard a huge solid in "Q Who" (S02-E16). The dots just weren't exactly that clear and still aren't that clear unless someone really connects the dots. I'd actually go so far as to say that the Federation does, in fact, owe its continued existence post "Best of Both Worlds" to Q simply because he made them aware the Borg were on the approach.

Sadly, even later episodes don't ever actually make reference to this. Picard even says to Q at one point (I forget which episode) "... and you introduced us to the Borg, thanks for that" (sarcastically). I honestly am forced to blame this one on the writer who threw that line in there (or maybe Patrick Stewart's execution of the line, or maybe the direction of the episode).
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Old August 17 2013, 11:42 PM   #101
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

No actually.

(Maybe?)

The Borg raided up and down the Neutral Zone to see if the Federation or Romulans were worthwhile for assimilation.

The Borg were not interested.

If that was the same Cube that did it's business at the end of Season one, it was on it's wayback to he Delta Quardant sad that the Alpha Quadrant sucked and the Queen back home might not have sent another cube back to check on the status of this area of space for another 50 years.

(When you go fishing, you have to chuck the little ones back.)

But do you know what changed their mind?

Q

Either they recognized that the Federation had a relationship with the Q they could leverage, or they mistook Q transporting the Enterprise for a stardrive using an unknown and interesting method of propulsion they could assimilate.

Suddenly the Fedration became a prized target.
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Old August 17 2013, 11:48 PM   #102
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

^^Correct me if I'm wrong but in the case of Farscape.

Crasis was chasing Crichton in part because he though he had killed his brother.
Scorpius was chasing Chrichton for his knowledge of wormholes.

So running into them was part of the back story as the antognist wanted the protagnist for some reason.

In the case of the Borg for example, through TNG they basically operated a policy of ignoring things unless they considered them a threat esp. onboard Borg Vessels.

And it's never implied that they didn't get more resources, which given the foreward nature of the station, it's serving as a base and a repair yard make logical sense to get a decent amount of resources.

And a PORTION of VOY's audiance made it clear they didn't want new alien races. True the Kazon ere a let down, but the Vidians were an intersting concept.

The problem is not so much as ahving a new race but more about having an intersting new race.
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Old August 18 2013, 12:00 AM   #103
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

MacLeod wrote: View Post
The problem is not so much as ahving a new race but more about having an intersting new race.
The Vidians were a new race who could wear a new face. I wished they'd been used more, though a defense of their handheld organ transporters would have been needed, or some sort of truce arranged.
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Old August 18 2013, 12:10 AM   #104
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

I prefered the Vidians to the Kazon.
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Old August 18 2013, 12:23 AM   #105
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

MacLeod wrote: View Post
I prefered the Vidians to the Kazon.
The Kazon were a complete joke from the beginning but the Vidians were a good idea that was poorly executed. They could have been a tragic and sympathetic enemy that hated having to butcher other people in order to survive. Instead they were just some ugly recurring bad guys who wanted to cut you up.
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