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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old August 17 2013, 06:27 AM   #76
Brit
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

R. Star wrote: View Post
Overexposure to any given villain results in the "water down effect" in which they get progressively weaker so that the good guys can beat them even though they were introduced as this unstoppable force. Even DS9 did this with the Dominion. A single Jem'Hadar ship took out a Galaxy-class ship in their first encounter and by season 7, runabouts were destroying them.

Voyager really did this on a bigger scale with the Borg. Oh they weren't destroying them, but they were dumbing them down in each encounter. Dark Frontier, the Queen was beaten in quite possibly the cheesiest action sequence ever, using technology they had supposedly assimilated even with it's creator a Borg Drone in that room. To say nothing of lacking security in what I guess is in effect their capital.

In Unimatrix Zero... well heck... the Borg just go apeshit with this whole "rebellion" thing. What one person on a ship of hundreds of thousands might be subconsciously plotting against us? Blow it up! That's like dropping an atomic bomb on New York City because you think there might be an Al Quaeda cell in it. Yeah that solves the problem, but creates a lot more. You'd think a race based on efficiency and perfection would consider that. Not to mention these rebel drones apparently overpowering Borg ships with ease, despite those number differentials, how dumb they had to be to fall for the assimilate thing(awfully nice of the Borg not to permanently disfigure any of them with eye gouging or arm amputation in favor of a toaster), and to cap it all the absurdity of introducing a SUPER cube... And Voyager able to engage it without any harm... and actually force it to shut down for repairs... yeah.

Then they just stopped pretending to dumb down the Borg in Endgame and gave Voyager godmode. Woo, let's go blowin up them Borg now! Pew pew!
This is pretty good at telling what is wrong in your opinion, except that wasn't the question. I ask why do you want the Borg to be so powerful in the first place. What is there about this particular group of beings that sets them above even the series heroes?
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Old August 17 2013, 06:53 AM   #77
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

R. Star wrote: View Post
. . .Then they just stopped pretending to dumb down the Borg in Endgame and gave Voyager godmode. Woo, let's go blowin up them Borg now! Pew pew!
You forgot the YEEEE-HAWWW!
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Old August 17 2013, 06:59 AM   #78
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Brit wrote:
This is pretty good at telling what is wrong in your opinion, except that wasn't the question. I ask why do you want the Borg to be so powerful in the first place. What is there about this particular group of beings that sets them above even the series heroes?
That's how they were originally established. That's how they used to be shown.

And I agree that the weakening of the Borg is a natural result of having them featured so often. It's the only way your heroes can credibly survive. But that's not a justification for the show to go back to that well again and again; in fact, it should be the opposite.

I would have been satisfied if the show featured the Borg as much as twice. The first time, you let the heroes exploit some weakness that lets them win-- barely. Just as in "The Best of Both Worlds."

The second time is worse. The Borg are adapting to everything the crew tries. They're cutting the heroes to ribbons. But you let the heroes exploit some major weakness: they build a Subspace Vinculum Jammer or some such thing, that takes down the Borg Collective permanently. At a cost. You kill off one or more cast members, or multiple recurring characters, in the process.

You do that and you've preserved the Borg's villain status. They weren't weakened. They were just as powerful and implacable as ever; the heroes just managed to find their Achilles heel before it was too late. They don't devolve into mustache-twirling villains who claim to be invincible but are shown onscreen to be totally ineffective.


Edit to add: And you've got a good explanation for why the Queen didn't unleash every cube in that part of space and stomp that @#$% Starfleet ship into a greasy spot after their second or third encounter.
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Old August 17 2013, 07:40 AM   #79
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

That's how they were originally established. That's how they used to be shown.
So was the Dominion. No one complained that they were depowered as DS9 went on.

And I agree that the weakening of the Borg is a natural result of having them featured so often. It's the only way your heroes can credibly survive. But that's not a justification for the show to go back to that well again and again; in fact, it should be the opposite.
Not if they have no other option for a continuing enemy.

And there's no need for there to be some permanent consequences from Borg encounters. There was little permanent damage done in TNG aside from Picard's time as Locutus.

If the Borg's one and only major appearance in the series had been "Scorpion" with the idea being tweaked so that the 8472 annihilated the majority of the Collective before VOY came across them (explaining why the Borg don't send more ships after VOY, they don't have any), then you'd still be complaining that the Borg had been weakened in some way. Even if it was at the hands of super-aliens from another Universe.

Hell, if we ever saw Q destroy a Borg Cube then you'd just complain the Borg were weakened by THAT too!

Last edited by Anwar; August 17 2013 at 07:58 AM.
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Old August 17 2013, 08:10 AM   #80
Silvercrest
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Why are you accusing me of complaining about everything when I just suggested a solution?

Actually your "Scorpion" idea sounds fine to me. It's pretty much in line with what I said.

Who says they had no other options for a continuing enemy?
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Old August 17 2013, 08:21 AM   #81
Anwar
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Why are you accusing me of complaining about everything when I just suggested a solution?
Because "Use them just twice" isn't a very good option. Neither is "Have the Borg leave scars" because they never did that before, not in TNG.

Actually your "Scorpion" idea sounds fine to me. It's pretty much in line with what I said.
You keep saying that Voyager weakened the Borg, and "Scorpion" is hated by Borg-lovers because it dared to show that there was at least one alien species out there that could beat up the Borg like they were nothing. So having most of the Borg be annihilated by the 8472 would be the same as "weakening them" like how VOY-proper did.

Who says they had no other options for a continuing enemy?
Every single time they tried (The Kazon, the Vidiians, the Krenim, the Hirogen) the reaction was always "They shouldn't keep running into these guys!" making it clear that the audience was never going to accept a continuing enemy. Yet they never complained about the idea of the Borg showing up more than once meaning they were the only option for a recurring external enemy.
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Old August 17 2013, 08:36 AM   #82
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Jennifer Sisko had to die.

How can you be sure that the Prophets didn't sponsor the Borg in the Best of Both Worlds?
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Old August 17 2013, 09:14 AM   #83
GameOn
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Anwar wrote: View Post
You keep saying that Voyager weakened the Borg, and "Scorpion" is hated by Borg-lovers because it dared to show that there was at least one alien species out there that could beat up the Borg like they were nothing. So having most of the Borg be annihilated by the 8472 would be the same as "weakening them" like how VOY-proper did.
Scorpion was fine it was later episodes like Dark Frontier and Unimatrix Zero were Voyager is actively looking for Borg ships to engage. In I Borg the Enterprise hides from a Borg scout ship.

Anwar wrote: View Post
Every single time they tried (The Kazon, the Vidiians, the Krenim, the Hirogen) the reaction was always "They shouldn't keep running into these guys!" making it clear that the audience was never going to accept a continuing enemy. Yet they never complained about the idea of the Borg showing up more than once meaning they were the only option for a recurring external enemy.
It's not that they were encountering the same race all the time but the same individual people. It made no sense when you're supposed to be constantly moving away from them. Having a season long enemy would have been fine if you were encountering different members of that race as they moved through that area of space. The Gift had Kes throw Voyager 10,000 light years clear of Borg space yet they still showed up all the time.
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Old August 17 2013, 10:14 AM   #84
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Ok, I'll toss out a misconception

I watched Voyager while it was in premier and since then, I must have watched the series through at least a dozen times (skipping a lot of the meh episodes, but watching a good majority of them).

During the original run, I always felt like Voyager felt too unrealistic because it came across as the little ship that could (IE it was practically indestructible). However, after as many times as I've rewatched it, I've come to realize the ship wasn't quite as "indestructible" as I precieved it to be while the series was in premier, it simply seemed like there were a bunch more space battles then there actually were. Most times when Voyager got in a skirmish they were able to manuver out and a threat loomed that more ships may pursue them, they had the good sense to make haste getting out of that sector.

The Borg and the Herogan are the only two species I still feel like they didn't have enough trouble with and in fairness, it seems like they had too much trouble with Kazon.
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Old August 17 2013, 10:45 AM   #85
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

About the Borg - at the start of First Contact, Picard pwned that Borg cube within three minutes of arriving, using his knowledge as a former drone. Voyager had a former drone too. Seems fine by me.
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Old August 17 2013, 10:51 AM   #86
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

The fleet had engaged with that one cube for at least the last 16 hours.

It's like with opening the pickle jar, you're sweating and grunting for 20 minutes but then that pretentious wanker your sister married taps the lid and it practically falls off.
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Old August 17 2013, 10:54 AM   #87
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Anwar wrote: View Post
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^^And Deep Space Nine also served as a repair station, as such wouldn't it get a decent amount of resources?
If they wanted to show how a war would realistically tax resources, they failed. VOY's situation was not as bad as DS9's.
Come on even in a war certain areas receive more resources than others.

TOS's premise as stated was "It's five year mission to seek out new life and new civilisations, to boldly go where no man has gone before." It never directly said it would be a five year mission without returning home to a starbase? Sure you can could perhaps say it's implied. But implied is not the same thiung as stated.
TOS was supposed to be about them exploring the unknown and be on their own while doing so. Yet they freely violated that premise repeatedly, with no one caring.


If one show gets away with doing this stuff with no complaints, then it begs the question why VOY is endlessly condemned for the same thing.
Just because other shows possible did without much critisim is not really a good defense about VOY doing it. Perhaps it could be a case a part of the audiance had simply had had enough of that and VOY was the tipping point. Sometimes in life peoples patience for things has a limited and for some perhpas VOY exceed their patience in that regard.


It did have to, because it couldn't do anything else really when you consider how limited and unsustainable the premise was.
That's a weak argument, the premise wasn't limited and unsustanainable and even if you except that it was if it was so weak and unsustainable then they should never have ran with it.
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Old August 17 2013, 11:39 AM   #88
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

The episode that ruined the Borg in Voyager was Dark Frontier. Giving the Borg Queen that freaky dominatrix-mommy personality and making her willing to negotiate with people completely reversed everything established about the Borg.

What didn't really make sense about the Borg was the number of Borg cubes. If one was enough to almost destroy the Federation, the thousands they had should have conquered the entire quadrant. Either that or all the worlds around borg space should have been much stronger than the Federation.
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Old August 17 2013, 11:46 AM   #89
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Brit wrote: View Post

This is pretty good at telling what is wrong in your opinion, except that wasn't the question. I ask why do you want the Borg to be so powerful in the first place. What is there about this particular group of beings that sets them above even the series heroes?
...Because that's what made them good villains in their first few appearances. Without unstoppability they're just a bunch of jerks with a freaking dominatrix-mommy as a leader.
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Old August 17 2013, 12:03 PM   #90
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
The episode that ruined the Borg in Voyager was Dark Frontier. Giving the Borg Queen that freaky dominatrix-mommy personality and making her willing to negotiate with people completely reversed everything established about the Borg.

What didn't really make sense about the Borg was the number of Borg cubes. If one was enough to almost destroy the Federation, the thousands they had should have conquered the entire quadrant. Either that or all the worlds around borg space should have been much stronger than the Federation.
There are supposed to be something like ten billion Earth-type planets in our galaxy. The Borg could be expanding out and assimilating a thousand worlds a day and it's still take hundreds of years for them to reach the Federation space in full force.
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