RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,234
Posts: 5,347,915
Members: 24,609
Currently online: 687
Newest member: chipper803

TrekToday headlines

Insight Editions Announces Three Trek Books For 2015
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

To Be Takei Review by Spencer Blohm
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Mulgrew: Playing Red
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Hallmark 2015 Trek Ornaments
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Funko Mini Spock
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

IDW Publishing Comic Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

A Baby For Saldana
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

Klingon Beer Arrives In The US
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

Star Trek: Prelude To Axanar
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

Abrams Announces Star Wars: Force For Change Sweepstakes
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Voyager

Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 16 2013, 08:50 PM   #61
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

I can't speak to that particular example as I'm not aware of VOY being particularly criticized for that.

As an example I can speak to - the softening of the the Borg - my feeling is that VOY encountered them with such greater frequency and intensity than the TNG folks did that there should have been more significant consequences -at some point-. Nevermind how "Unimatrix Zero"(?) made (even partial) assimilation look like a cakewalk. The poster who noted that VOY never appeared to suffer significant damage nor casualties from any of its multiple encounters with the Borg nailed it rather well IMO.

Ironically I thought the whole point of the end of "The Gift" was that Kes had essentially pushed VOY out of Borg space, at least for the most part. Clearly either she didn't do that, the Borg underwent a massive expansion immediately afterward, or even the areas that aren't considered part of Borg space are nevertheless crawling with Borg, which makes little sense to me.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 16 2013, 08:55 PM   #62
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

^To be fair though, those who came to Trek via VOY might not have that same viewpoint however.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 16 2013, 08:59 PM   #63
KaraBear
Captain
 
KaraBear's Avatar
 
Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

I don't believe that the Borg were softened. Voyager neve destroyed many cubes as people say they did.

In regards to the Gift, they left what was the most highly populated area of borg. they have transwarp conduits so they can go anywhere, they're not limited to that area of space.
KaraBear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 16 2013, 09:06 PM   #64
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Whether an enemy has been softened is not merely a matter of how easy they are to destroy. I think I did a reasonable job of pointing out how I feel they were softened in other manners.

In regards to "The Gift", I think it was a mistake to have the Borg show up as frequently as they did after that episode, as it gave the impression that Kes hadn't done much for them at all. Though to be fair I'd need a run-down of the episodes in which the Borg appear in order to assess which I'd be willing to discard.

Actually, they could have bought that back a bit if the crew had ever referenced Kes's push along with a feeling of surprise that the Borg still had such a significant presence.

Doesn't Chakotay in one episode say, somewhat laughably, "It's not every day we go looking for the Borg?" Yeahhhh....
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 16 2013, 09:12 PM   #65
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

KaraBear wrote: View Post
I don't believe that the Borg were softened. Voyager neve destroyed many cubes as people say they did.

In regards to the Gift, they left what was the most highly populated area of borg. they have transwarp conduits so they can go anywhere, they're not limited to that area of space.
Perhaps. But lets look at some other events

"Q Who?" the Borg were about to destroy the Ent-D before Q snapped his fingers

"BOBW"/"Emissary" the Borg wipe the floor with the Federation destroying 39 out of 40 ships before the Ent-D could accidently cause the Borg ships powergrid to overload via Locutus

"First Contact", a fleet of Starships has been engaging the borg for light years inflicitng heavy damage. The only destroy the cube once again thanks to a residual link to Locutus/Picard.

So it seems as if you need a fair few ships to even come close to destroying a cube.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 16 2013, 09:23 PM   #66
Brit
Captain
 
Brit's Avatar
 
Location: Texas
Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

MacLeod wrote: View Post
^To be fair though, those who came to Trek via VOY might not have that same viewpoint however.
I think this is a very valid point. When TOS, TNG, and DS9 were cast, the stars were relatively unknown. Trek had a reputation for picking stage actors for regulars. However, Kate Mulgrew had a significant fan following already, back when she was on Ryan's Hope she was a big time star. It's more evident in the shipper boards because it was and is largely female. Casting Kate Mulgrew brought in a lot of fans that had never seen any other Trek before.

You have no idea how many times I've had to explain that Cardassia was devastated after the Dominion War, so much so that I doubt they would have paid any attention to a few Maquis that had been stranded in the Delta Quadrant for seven years, much less extradite them. To this day there are Voyager fans that only saw Voyager.
__________________
"My name is Matai Shang and I do not exist, indeed I work very hard at it."

Avatar by Me
Brit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 16 2013, 09:32 PM   #67
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

^Once again that depends on your point of view. From my point of view all of VOY's cast were unknown to me except maybe Robert Picardo who I had seen in a couple of films i.e. Innerspace.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 16 2013, 09:37 PM   #68
Melakon
Vice Admiral
 
Melakon's Avatar
 
Location: Unmarked grave, Ekos
Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

The series was stuck with the episodic format apparently due to network request. Though I wish the Borg episodes could have been written as some sort of gradually escalating mini-arc spread over the years, as they got closer to "Borg Headquarters".
__________________
Curly: Moe, Larry, the cheese! Moe, Larry, the cheese! (Horses Collars, 1935)
Melakon is online now   Reply With Quote
Old August 16 2013, 09:39 PM   #69
hux
Lieutenant Commander
 
hux's Avatar
 
Location: Yorkshire, UK
Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

It was inevitable that the Borg would be softened in much the same way the Klingons, Romulans and even Cardassians were softened simply by exposure. The more we saw them, the less intimidating they became and the more difficult it was to sell them as 2 dimensional baddies

The beauty of the Borg was that you could sell them as the 2 dimensional baddies without it becoming ridiculous because they weren't a sentient species with a culture, they were mindless drones and so wouldn't have to evolve in the same way the other species (used as baddies) throughout the franchise evolved

I agree they became less threatening and intimidating as characters on Voyager but that was more to do with seeing them so often rather than undermining what had gone before.

They were an impressive new threat but lets face it, once Starfleet had acquired some experience with the Borg, they could cope with them to some extent (even if they were still formidable) and were they ever that powerful to begin with anyway....i mean think about it....they dominated the Delta quadrant for goodness sake....a quadrant with the least impressive species in the entire galaxy
__________________
Kryton - Is this the human quality you call....friendship

Lister - Don't give me any of that Star Trek crap, its too early in the morning
hux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 16 2013, 10:43 PM   #70
Gojira
Commodore
 
Gojira's Avatar
 
Location: Stompin' on Tokyo
Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

^ I agree. Any villain that is used a lot and defeated a great number of times is going to become a weak villain. How threatening can they be if they are always defeated at every encounter?

I think VOY and TNG took the teeth out of the Borg.
__________________
My Science Fiction-Fantasy movie review Blog: http://foleyfunfilmfacts.wordpress.com/
Gojira is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 16 2013, 10:49 PM   #71
Silvercrest
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Lost in Moria (Arlington, WA, USA)
Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Teeth will be irrelevant in the new order. Drones receive sufficient nourishment during regeneration periods. You will be assimilated at once. Bend over.
Silvercrest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 16 2013, 11:03 PM   #72
JirinPanthosa
Commodore
 
Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

You can make an argument for a prime directive violation every time anybody talks to anybody on any other planet. Guy Gardener is just calling every instance of good samaritanism involving any pre-warp species or that has any impact on any culture a PD violation. You can certainly make that argument, but not without TOS, TNG and ENT being equally guilty.

DS9 and Voyager may have had roughly the same number of episodes that involved time travel, but it's not really the same thing. Other than Past Tense, Trials, The Visitor, Little Green Men, you get instances more like Visionary or that Molly episode where one character makes an excursion to the past or future and everybody else stays home.

In the average DS9 time travel episode, one character travels through time and is not in a position to profoundly change the timeline.

In the average Voyager time travel episode, the entire ship gets fractured in time, and the future and/or past is at risk of being completely destroyed.
JirinPanthosa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 16 2013, 11:23 PM   #73
Gojira
Commodore
 
Gojira's Avatar
 
Location: Stompin' on Tokyo
Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Teeth will be irrelevant in the new order. Drones receive sufficient nourishment during regeneration periods. You will be assimilated at once. Bend over.

__________________
My Science Fiction-Fantasy movie review Blog: http://foleyfunfilmfacts.wordpress.com/
Gojira is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17 2013, 03:32 AM   #74
R. Star
Rear Admiral
 
R. Star's Avatar
 
Location: Shangri-La
Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Overexposure to any given villain results in the "water down effect" in which they get progressively weaker so that the good guys can beat them even though they were introduced as this unstoppable force. Even DS9 did this with the Dominion. A single Jem'Hadar ship took out a Galaxy-class ship in their first encounter and by season 7, runabouts were destroying them.

Voyager really did this on a bigger scale with the Borg. Oh they weren't destroying them, but they were dumbing them down in each encounter. Dark Frontier, the Queen was beaten in quite possibly the cheesiest action sequence ever, using technology they had supposedly assimilated even with it's creator a Borg Drone in that room. To say nothing of lacking security in what I guess is in effect their capital.

In Unimatrix Zero... well heck... the Borg just go apeshit with this whole "rebellion" thing. What one person on a ship of hundreds of thousands might be subconsciously plotting against us? Blow it up! That's like dropping an atomic bomb on New York City because you think there might be an Al Quaeda cell in it. Yeah that solves the problem, but creates a lot more. You'd think a race based on efficiency and perfection would consider that. Not to mention these rebel drones apparently overpowering Borg ships with ease, despite those number differentials, how dumb they had to be to fall for the assimilate thing(awfully nice of the Borg not to permanently disfigure any of them with eye gouging or arm amputation in favor of a toaster), and to cap it all the absurdity of introducing a SUPER cube... And Voyager able to engage it without any harm... and actually force it to shut down for repairs... yeah.

Then they just stopped pretending to dumb down the Borg in Endgame and gave Voyager godmode. Woo, let's go blowin up them Borg now! Pew pew!
__________________
"I was never a Star Trek fan." J.J. Abrams
R. Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 17 2013, 04:51 AM   #75
Anwar
Vice Admiral
 
Anwar's Avatar
 
Location: Regina, SK, Canada
Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

MacLeod wrote: View Post
^^And Deep Space Nine also served as a repair station, as such wouldn't it get a decent amount of resources?
If they wanted to show how a war would realistically tax resources, they failed. VOY's situation was not as bad as DS9's.

TOS's premise as stated was "It's five year mission to seek out new life and new civilisations, to boldly go where no man has gone before." It never directly said it would be a five year mission without returning home to a starbase? Sure you can could perhaps say it's implied. But implied is not the same thiung as stated.
TOS was supposed to be about them exploring the unknown and be on their own while doing so. Yet they freely violated that premise repeatedly, with no one caring.

Or rather it may be a valid argument against those shows but is hardly an argument in favor of "Voyager"
If one show gets away with doing this stuff with no complaints, then it begs the question why VOY is endlessly condemned for the same thing.

Because Voyager came later and chose to retread old ground when it didn't have to. "Bad"+"Seen it all before" trumps just plain "Bad."
It did have to, because it couldn't do anything else really when you consider how limited and unsustainable the premise was.

As an example I can speak to - the softening of the the Borg - my feeling is that VOY encountered them with such greater frequency and intensity than the TNG folks did that there should have been more significant consequences -at some point-.
There were no significant consequences for the TNG encounters either, aside from Picard's own character development.

Doesn't Chakotay in one episode say, somewhat laughably, "It's not every day we go looking for the Borg?" Yeahhhh....
Why should they be so scared of the Borg all the time? By then, they knew there were worse things out there.

So it seems as if you need a fair few ships to even come close to destroying a cube.
The Ent-D destroyed the Borg Cube and all they needed was Data and Locutus.

The Ent-D also destroyed the Renegade Borg ship in "Descent" all on their own too.

And of course, if VOY had done the same thing and used a Solar Flare or a Black Hole or a Neutron Star to destroy or even DAMAGE a Borg ship (not even a Cube, maybe just a tiny Sphere or Scout ship) there'd be Hell to pay.

I mean Heck, folks complained that there was a single Alien race out there that could fight the Borg (8472) yet if DS9 showed the Prophets destroying a Borg armada like they did to the Dominion in DS9 NO ONE would bat an eye.

You just can't win.
Anwar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:13 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.