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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

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Old October 1 2013, 01:47 AM   #286
Yanks
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Scorpious from farscqape rocked from beginning to end.

A villain who's character, who's actors internal fire kept the dread alive despite surviving some of the worst imaginable scripts had to be Ronald Sandoval from Earth Final Conflict.
Scorpius did rock, but Sandoval ended up being a joke.

What exactly did you expect from Voyager? They were in the frakin Delta Quadrant. I was surprised they didn't run into them the first 3 years of the show.

They should have been a constant nemesis for Voyager.

I don't think they were over used. I think many folks feel that way because of Seven. But the fact is, Jeri was a great actress and the writers took the opportunity to write for a great character.

Good for them, better than more "Harry" episodes.
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Old October 1 2013, 01:49 AM   #287
Guy Gardener
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Yanks wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
You know Janeway murdered Tuvix.

Go ahead and reply to older posts or just start posting what is on your mind in relation to what you were enjoying. People will respond.
Don't agree here teacake.

She had no choice but to serve both Tuvok and Neelix.

They were joined by a fluke of science/nature.

She would be neglecting 2 of her crew members and her closest friend by allowing Tuvix to exist.

Tuvix even knew this.
Liar.

The only thing he knew was that if he ran that Janeway would hunt him forever and ever and ever. Which is why they found him foetal and crying when he should have been running.

In truth, outside of the story, they didn't have time for an extra act, to have a shuttle chase, or a "6 months" later followed by a Zero Dark 30 like encounter where Paris and Kim shoot through Tuvixs wive's in some frontier hut to bring him back and cut the bugger in half.

I wonder what King Solomon's take on this would have been?
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Old October 1 2013, 01:57 AM   #288
Guy Gardener
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Yanks wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Scorpious from farscqape rocked from beginning to end.

A villain who's character, who's actors internal fire kept the dread alive despite surviving some of the worst imaginable scripts had to be Ronald Sandoval from Earth Final Conflict.
Scorpius did rock, but Sandoval ended up being a joke.

What exactly did you expect from Voyager? They were in the frakin Delta Quadrant. I was surprised they didn't run into them the first 3 years of the show.

They should have been a constant nemesis for Voyager.

I don't think they were over used. I think many folks feel that way because of Seven. But the fact is, Jeri was a great actress and the writers took the opportunity to write for a great character.

Good for them, better than more "Harry" episodes.
It took them two years to exit Kazon "related" space.

Almost everyone else was breezed by in a week.

Internal conflict would have been easy.

Seska didn't leave, or came back.

Some one was Section 31.

The Equinox 5 had trouble assimilating.

Or my personal favourite: Civilian elections.
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Last edited by Guy Gardener; October 1 2013 at 02:10 AM.
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Old October 1 2013, 02:11 AM   #289
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
You know Janeway murdered Tuvix.

Go ahead and reply to older posts or just start posting what is on your mind in relation to what you were enjoying. People will respond.
Don't agree here teacake.

She had no choice but to serve both Tuvok and Neelix.

They were joined by a fluke of science/nature.

She would be neglecting 2 of her crew members and her closest friend by allowing Tuvix to exist.

Tuvix even knew this.
Liar.

The only thing he knew was that if he ran that Janeway would hunt him forever and ever and ever. Which is why they found him foetal and crying when he should have been running.

In truth, outside of the story, they didn't have time for an extra act, to have a shuttle chase, or a "6 months" later followed by a Zero Dark 30 like encounter where Paris and Kim shoot through Tuvixs wive's in some frontier hut to bring him back and cut the bugger in half.

I wonder what King Solomon's take on this would have been?
TUVIX: Are you saying I'm going to be this way forever?

Clearly here he doesn't want to "stay this way"

JANEWAY: Aren't there two other lives to consider here? What about Tuvok and Neelix? Two voices that we can't hear right now. As Captain, I must be their voice, and I believe they would want to live.

She's 100% correct here.

Then Tuvix tries to play the group guilt trip crap...

TUVIX: I think we all should hear what you have to say.

He knew it wasn't right to remain Tuvix as long as there was a procedure that would be successful restoring Tuvok and Neelix.

A part of me, at this point in the series, wanted the splitting to fail. Tuvok was OK and Neelix ended up like the transporter accident in TMP.

But at the end we get to here this...

NEELIX: Hello, sweeting.

Oh well, a lost opportunity.

"Liar"???
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Old October 1 2013, 02:28 AM   #290
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Yup.

The nature of this problem is that there is no absolutely virtuous answer.

You can say that it's better or the best thing to bring the other two back, but it's still horrible and murder.

Only crazy Supervillains believe in absolutes.

I can make a convincing argument for both sides.

If you can't make a convincing argument for a point of view you don't agree with, then you are you are quite possibly a crazy super villain or not in control of the complete facts.

(Sweeting? HA! I too make that typo all the time.)
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Old October 1 2013, 02:47 AM   #291
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

What would a Section 31 crewperson DO on Voyager? How would this be interesting since there was no one for them to take orders from.. okay once they were in touch again this could have been a whole subversive plot because the sleeper agent was given orders.
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Old October 1 2013, 02:54 AM   #292
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Yup.

The nature of this problem is that there is no absolutely virtuous answer.

You can say that it's better or the best thing to bring the other two back, but it's still horrible and murder.

Only crazy Supervillains believe in absolutes.

I can make a convincing argument for both sides.

If you can't make a convincing argument for a point of view you don't agree with, then you are you are quite possibly a crazy super villain or not in control of the complete facts.

(Sweeting? HA! I too make that typo all the time.)
You can make a convincing argument for both sides but choose the wrong one.

I can make an argument for Tuvix, but it's the wrong one. There are two murders that need righted.

Tuvix loses.

It's not a typo, it's quote from the transcript.
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Old October 1 2013, 02:55 AM   #293
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

You remember there a was a novel about a section 31 Agent on Voyager?

In Prime Factors the entire crew conspired to make Janeways life easier by being the two timing criminals she couldn't.

Section 31 are not bad guys.

They just do horrible things to enemies of the Federation.
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Old October 1 2013, 02:59 AM   #294
Yanks
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Scorpious from farscqape rocked from beginning to end.

A villain who's character, who's actors internal fire kept the dread alive despite surviving some of the worst imaginable scripts had to be Ronald Sandoval from Earth Final Conflict.
Scorpius did rock, but Sandoval ended up being a joke.

What exactly did you expect from Voyager? They were in the frakin Delta Quadrant. I was surprised they didn't run into them the first 3 years of the show.

They should have been a constant nemesis for Voyager.

I don't think they were over used. I think many folks feel that way because of Seven. But the fact is, Jeri was a great actress and the writers took the opportunity to write for a great character.

Good for them, better than more "Harry" episodes.
It took them two years to exit Kazon "related" space.

Almost everyone else was breezed by in a week.

Internal conflict would have been easy.

Seska didn't leave, or came back.

Some one was Section 31.

The Equinox 5 had trouble assimilating.

Or my personal favourite: Civilian elections.
I wish the Kazon would have been breezed by in a week. The worst "villians" in all of trek.

The only redeeming Kazon was Nog.

Seska was frellin great.

No idea what you are talking about with the rest of your post.
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Old October 1 2013, 03:00 AM   #295
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

OH YEAH, I read that novel. I own that novel. I remember nothing about it.

Out of all the Trek handwringing over lost potential the only thing that still bothers me is they should have made Reed a WILLING Section 31 agent. Not a reformed one. I think they piked out because they had to see Section 31 as villains.
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Old October 1 2013, 03:14 AM   #296
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Yanks wrote: View Post

I can make an argument for Tuvix, but it's the wrong one. There are two murders that need righted.

Tuvix loses.
Who murdered Neelix and Tuvok again? An accident happened. Tragic as that may be, no one should be at fault for that. The only murder in that episode was done by Janeway. There is no moral justification to take an innocent person's life against his will. Janeway decided she liked Tuvok(and maybe Neelix) more and that was the only reason, otherwise Kes's crying wouldn't have been what made her make the choice. You can argue Tuvix was a coward for not falling on his sword, but last I checked cowardice isn't a capital crime.

Gone is the Janeway that was appalled at the suggestion of executing Suder for murder or that wouldn't even kill a Viidian who stole Neelix's lungs and left him for dead.
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Old October 1 2013, 03:17 AM   #297
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Dang...Tuvix again?

We need a Tuvix emoticon for this board.
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Old October 1 2013, 03:18 AM   #298
Guy Gardener
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Yanks wrote: View Post
You can make a convincing argument for both sides but choose the wrong one.

I can make an argument for Tuvix, but it's the wrong one. There are two murders that need righted.

Tuvix loses.

It's not a typo, it's quote from the transcript.
Meh.

JANEWAY: I'm ordering you to come with me. Security to the Bridge.
TUVIX: Commander, are you going to stand by and do nothing while she commits murder? Mister Ayala. Yes, Lieutenant Paris. You. Doesn't anyone see that this is wrong?
(Security enter. Tuvix tries to run for a turbolift and they grab him.)
JANEWAY: Let him go.
TUVIX: Each of you is going to have to live with this, and I'm sorry for that, for you are all good, good people. My colleagues, my friends, I forgive you.
JANEWAY: Commander Chakotay, advise the Doctor we're on our way to Sickbay.
Tuvix couldn't stop Janeway. Max Burke would have killed the bridge crew and then kept killing off the remaining lower deck crewmen until the survivors got in line, but that's because one is a bastard, and the other is basically a decent guy in a tough situation.

Tuvix says that he is being murdered and that it is wrong and begs his friends to stop his murder... And even after they stfu and participate in his murder by silently allowing it to continue, just like Jesus he forgives them.

Just like Jesus.

You don't hate little baby Jesus do you?

Becuase little baby Jesus loves you and so does Tuvix.

...

From the first principle, you didn't ask me to argue that what happened to Tuvix was right or wrong, but if Tuvix accepted that he deserved to be Murdered by Janeway, which he clearly didn't in the end before she executed him.

The lad had class.
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Old October 1 2013, 03:24 AM   #299
Yanks
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

R. Star wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post

I can make an argument for Tuvix, but it's the wrong one. There are two murders that need righted.

Tuvix loses.
Who murdered Neelix and Tuvok again? An accident happened. Tragic as that may be, no one should be at fault for that. The only murder in that episode was done by Janeway. There is no moral justification to take an innocent person's life against his will. Janeway decided she liked Tuvok(and maybe Neelix) more and that was the only reason, otherwise Kes's crying wouldn't have been what made her make the choice. You can argue Tuvix was a coward for not falling on his sword, but last I checked cowardice isn't a capital crime.

Gone is the Janeway that was appalled at the suggestion of executing Suder for murder or that wouldn't even kill a Viidian who stole Neelix's lungs and left him for dead.
Nah, you complete shrug off the Tuvok & Neelix DEATHS.

Wasn't Kirk put back together again? What about those "two"?

You all just want to call Janeway a murderer.

Good thing it wasn't Guystar
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Old October 1 2013, 03:26 AM   #300
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Re: common misconceptions about Voyager

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Yanks wrote: View Post
You can make a convincing argument for both sides but choose the wrong one.

I can make an argument for Tuvix, but it's the wrong one. There are two murders that need righted.

Tuvix loses.

It's not a typo, it's quote from the transcript.
Meh.

JANEWAY: I'm ordering you to come with me. Security to the Bridge.
TUVIX: Commander, are you going to stand by and do nothing while she commits murder? Mister Ayala. Yes, Lieutenant Paris. You. Doesn't anyone see that this is wrong?
(Security enter. Tuvix tries to run for a turbolift and they grab him.)
JANEWAY: Let him go.
TUVIX: Each of you is going to have to live with this, and I'm sorry for that, for you are all good, good people. My colleagues, my friends, I forgive you.
JANEWAY: Commander Chakotay, advise the Doctor we're on our way to Sickbay.
Tuvix couldn't stop Janeway. Max Burke would have killed the bridge crew and then kept killing off the remaining lower deck crewmen until the survivors got in line, but that's because one is a bastard, and the other is basically a decent guy in a tough situation.

Tuvix says that he is being murdered and that it is wrong and begs his friends to stop his murder... And even after they stfu and participate in his murder by silently allowing it to continue, just like Jesus he forgives them.

Just like Jesus.

You don't hate little baby Jesus do you?

Becuase little baby Jesus loves you and so does Tuvix.

...

From the first principle, you didn't ask me to argue that what happened to Tuvix was right or wrong, but if Tuvix accepted that he deserved to be Murdered by Janeway, which he clearly didn't in the end before she executed him.

The lad had class.
He forgave them because he knew they & Janeway were right.
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