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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > The Next Generation

The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old August 20 2013, 02:33 AM   #16
Lance
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Re: IS the okuda timeline canon?

Mysterion wrote: View Post
For the most part, the book seems to hold up as published. I don't agree with a couple of things, like the dating for TWoK vs. Space Seed. But there is more that is correct than not in the book, IMO.
A far more troubling question opens up from the Okudas' insistence on including a period of time for the conjectural 'Phase II' adventures following TMP. Sure, it's clear that a lot of things were changed between TMP and TWOK, and the Okudas wanted to reflect that it appears to have been quite a substantial amount of time between those movies in-universe. But it's this that opens up the biggest can of worms, because in terms of a realistic time-frame in regards to time since the events of "Space Seed", TWOK can't be too far from TMP. Virtually the entire TOS movie series is kind of bumped along in time to take into account Kirk's (conjectural) second five year mission in the refit Enterprise, and that's what causes most of the headaches until TNG restabilizes things again with it's firm setting.
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Old August 20 2013, 05:22 AM   #17
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Re: IS the okuda timeline canon?

The large gap of time between TMP and TWOK is because onscreen, TMP was said to take place about 2 1/2 years after the 5-year mission, while TWOK took place about 15 years after a specific year of the same mission. The conjectural 5-year mission after TMP is just a way of partially filling the gap that the movies themselves had established...and it's in the spirit of the closing scene of TMP.
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Old August 20 2013, 05:27 PM   #18
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Re: IS the okuda timeline canon?

Lance wrote: View Post
Mysterion wrote: View Post
For the most part, the book seems to hold up as published. I don't agree with a couple of things, like the dating for TWoK vs. Space Seed. But there is more that is correct than not in the book, IMO.
A far more troubling question opens up from the Okudas' insistence on including a period of time for the conjectural 'Phase II' adventures following TMP. Sure, it's clear that a lot of things were changed between TMP and TWOK, and the Okudas wanted to reflect that it appears to have been quite a substantial amount of time between those movies in-universe. But it's this that opens up the biggest can of worms, because in terms of a realistic time-frame in regards to time since the events of "Space Seed", TWOK can't be too far from TMP. Virtually the entire TOS movie series is kind of bumped along in time to take into account Kirk's (conjectural) second five year mission in the refit Enterprise, and that's what causes most of the headaches until TNG restabilizes things again with it's firm setting.
Well if we accept that Space Seed occurs in 2267, and that TWoK takes place 15 years later as stated on-screen, which would be 2282, and that TMP takes place in 2273 (per VGR); that still gives us about nine years between TMP and TWoK to play with uniforms and additional 5-year missions, or whatever.
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Old August 20 2013, 08:14 PM   #19
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Re: IS the okuda timeline canon?

Another vote for a new edition. But with all the timeline changes from ENT, not to mention NuTrek, I sure wouldn't want to try to write it.
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Old August 20 2013, 10:30 PM   #20
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Re: IS the okuda timeline canon?

Well, ENT didn't change a whole lot. It added four seasons worth of stuff, though.

As for "nuTrek", I would put it in an appendix at the end of the book since it is a seperate parallel/alternate timeline just like the "Mirror" universe.
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Old August 21 2013, 12:25 AM   #21
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Re: IS the okuda timeline canon?

Mysterion wrote: View Post
Well if we accept that Space Seed occurs in 2267, and that TWoK takes place 15 years later as stated on-screen, which would be 2282, and that TMP takes place in 2273 (per VGR); that still gives us about nine years between TMP and TWoK to play with uniforms and additional 5-year missions, or whatever.
But Kirk's Romulan Ale is dated 2283, and Kirk and McCoy seem to imply that some years have passed since that date (although we could interpret McCoy's line as irony).

I remember a book of short Trek stories in the '80s coming up with an early 23rd century date (like 2212, or something like that) so as to allow Khan's line of "two hundred years ago" to make sense in a 23rd century setting, yet that requires ignoring the date on the bottle of Romulan ale.
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Old August 21 2013, 04:47 PM   #22
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Re: IS the okuda timeline canon?

Short answer: no.

First and foremost, these books are based on materials created to aid the production team in maintaining continuity and consistency. They are secondly meant to make a buck and provide fan enjoyment which IMHO they do.

But they are most certainly not canon. I'd give them more credence than some books, simply because they were indeed members of the production team, but they're still not canon. If the screen conflicts with them, the screen wins.
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Old August 21 2013, 05:16 PM   #23
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Re: IS the okuda timeline canon?

^ I think it is much to the Okudas credit that they state multiple times within the books themselves that they are most definitely not canon. They do respect the viewing audience enough not to go trampling over the fans own interpretations of events, and they say quite explicitly that what they're offering is only their own personal take on the continuity. Even as members of the production team they don't try to "pull rank" and claim that what they say has any greater credence than anything else (even though they could have done, if they'd wanted).

Obviously the writing staff did often call up the Okudas to consult on continuity matters, and those calls sometimes meant that things which had previously appeared as conjecture within the Chronology were stated on screen as fact and were made canon. But even then, there were also many times when decisions were made despite what the Chronology says, rather than being true to the letter of the Okudas' conjecture. Which was a healthy attitude to take.

I like both books, I always did. But I don't hold them up as 'canon', nothing can be held in that high regard until it is established beyond reasonable doubt in a television episode or movie. And even then I can imagine there will be just as much contradictory evidence to make a case that it still isn't canon.

(Just throwing this out there: is there anyone else who tend to be selective about what parts of the Chronology they accept? Personally I do think what the Okudas say about TNG, DS9 and VOY has got credibility due to their both working on all of those shows. But on the other hand, everything involving TOS is questionable because, apart from the last couple movies, Okuda had no "inside knowledge" to pull from.)
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Old August 21 2013, 05:27 PM   #24
Robert Comsol
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Re: IS the okuda timeline canon?

Lance wrote: View Post
Personally I do think what the Okudas say about TNG, DS9 and VOY has got credibility due to their both working on all of those shows. But on the other hand, everything involving TOS is questionable.
I absolutely concur, 15 years is 15 solar years.

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Old August 21 2013, 06:22 PM   #25
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Re: IS the okuda timeline canon?

Lance wrote: View Post
I think it is much to the Okudas credit that they state multiple times within the books themselves that they are most definitely not canon. They do respect the viewing audience enough not to go trampling over the fans own interpretations of events, and they say quite explicitly that what they're offering is only their own personal take on the continuity. Even as members of the production team they don't try to "pull rank" and claim that what they say has any greater credence than anything else (even though they could have done, if they'd wanted).

Obviously the writing staff did often call up the Okudas to consult on continuity matters, and those calls sometimes meant that things which had previously appeared as conjecture within the Chronology were stated on screen as fact and were made canon. But even then, there were also many times when decisions were made despite what the Chronology says, rather than being true to the letter of the Okudas' conjecture. Which was a healthy attitude to take.

I like both books, I always did. But I don't hold them up as 'canon', nothing can be held in that high regard until it is established beyond reasonable doubt in a television episode or movie. And even then I can imagine there will be just as much contradictory evidence to make a case that it still isn't canon.
Agreed. There are certain things not established on screen that I just ignore because I don't think it makes sense. They're fans like we are, they're just lucky enough to have worked on the show.

Lance wrote: View Post
(Just throwing this out there: is there anyone else who tend to be selective about what parts of the Chronology they accept? Personally I do think what the Okudas say about TNG, DS9 and VOY has got credibility due to their both working on all of those shows. But on the other hand, everything involving TOS is questionable because, apart from the last couple movies, Okuda had no "inside knowledge" to pull from.)
Yes... in fact I started to mention something along these lines in my previous post. It kind of irks me, for similar reasons, that their assumption about the U.S.S. Antares and her registry has been (sorta) made canon by TOSR, among other things. But I digress.
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Old August 22 2013, 04:33 PM   #26
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Re: IS the okuda timeline canon?

So out of interest We know that there are some instances of the TOS dates being flawed any obvious problems with the TNG dating?
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Old August 23 2013, 03:00 AM   #27
Geoff Peterson
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Re: IS the okuda timeline canon?

sariel2005 wrote: View Post
So out of interest We know that there are some instances of the TOS dates being flawed any obvious problems with the TNG dating?
Data graduating as part of the class of '78.
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Old August 23 2013, 04:34 AM   #28
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Re: IS the okuda timeline canon?

^Contradicted on the show itself, when they gave the first-ever definite current Earth year on Trek (2364 for the end of TNG's first season).
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Old August 23 2013, 03:31 PM   #29
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Re: IS the okuda timeline canon?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Data graduating as part of the class of '78.
Maybe the graduation was held on another planet with a different dating system!
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Old August 23 2013, 04:03 PM   #30
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Re: IS the okuda timeline canon?

Ben wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Data graduating as part of the class of '78.
Maybe the graduation was held on another planet with a different dating system!
If that had been the case, Data would've given a painfully detailed description.
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