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Old August 20 2013, 08:31 AM   #196
Timewalker
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Please forgive the double post; my computer has been behaving erratically and I want to get this said.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Example: the ridiculous public displays of affection between Spock and Uhura. It may titillate the younger fans who don't remember or never saw how real Spock and real Uhura related to each other in TOS, but it's not how the characters were established or developed. Their relationship was always based on mutual respect, and never went beyond the mild flirtation in one or two early episodes.
That's absolutely true--as far as the original series is concerned. But you seem to be missing the point that the new versions of the characters are not supposed to be identical to the previous versions. New timeline, new universe, new twists and character dynamics. That's kinda the idea.

I find it telling that you refers to the original versions as "real Spock" and "real Uhura"--as opposed to, say, the previous versions of Spock and Uhura, which is a less judgmental or dogmatic way to phrase it. If you keep expecting NuTrek to be completely faithful to the earlier version, you're bound to be disappointed.

Different actors (and writers) are going to portray the same characters differently, especially when retelling the stories generations apart. That's not an "assassination" or even inaccurate. It's just a new and different approach to the characters.

To channel Seven of Nine, exactly how the characters of Spock and Uhura were established or developed back in the day is irrelevant. The old Spock and Uhura were indeed just friends and colleagues; the new Spock and Uhura have a closer relationship.

Neither version is wrong.
Okay... first of all, it's not just the FACT that realSpock and realUhura never went beyond mild flirtation - it's a FACT that Vulcan society in general didn't go in for public displays of affection such as those done by nuSpock and nuUhura. I find it very hard to believe that the Abramsverse Vulcans would be into it, either. Spock grew up in a "don't show your emotions in public and preferably not in private, either" culture - so why is he acting not only un-Vulcan, but also unprofessionally as a Starfleet officer? Saying "it's a reboot" just doesn't excuse it. That's not Spock. It's an actor we're expected to think is Spock and react to as though he's Spock, but that character is NOT authentically Spock.

And excuse me for using the terms "real(character name)" instead of some other term. To me they ARE the real characters. The Abrams versions are the phonies, the fakes, the counterfeits (to me). And THAT's not wrong.

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
Uhura wasn't above teasing Spock.

Charlie X wrote:
UHURA: I'm sorry. I did it again, didn't I. (Spock smirks and begins playing again) (singing) Oh, on the starship Enterprise There's someone who's in Satan's guise Whose devil ears and devil eyes Could rip your heart from you. At first, his look could hypnotize And then his touch would barbarize His alien love could victimize And rip your heart from you. And that's why female astronauts, Oh, very female astronauts Wait terrified and overwrought To find what he will do. Oh, girls in space, be wary, be wary, be wary, Girls in space, be wary. We know not what he'll do.
Just saying.
ComicGuy89 wrote: View Post
Or how about this exchange? I believe more would have developed if Spock prime had allowed it.

No, you have an answer. I'm an illogical woman who's beginning to feel too much a part of that communications console. Why don't you tell me I'm an attractive young lady or ask me if I've ever been in love? Tell me how planet Vulcan looks when the moon is full.
Like I said - mild flirtation. Uhura didn't drape herself all over him, and they never kissed. Neither of them behaved unprofessionally while on duty. The nuTrek characters did.
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Old August 20 2013, 10:36 AM   #197
F. King Daniel
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Okay... first of all, it's not just the FACT that realSpock and realUhura never went beyond mild flirtation - it's a FACT that Vulcan society in general didn't go in for public displays of affection such as those done by nuSpock and nuUhura. I find it very hard to believe that the Abramsverse Vulcans would be into it, either. Spock grew up in a "don't show your emotions in public and preferably not in private, either" culture - so why is he acting not only un-Vulcan, but also unprofessionally as a Starfleet officer? Saying "it's a reboot" just doesn't excuse it. That's not Spock. It's an actor we're expected to think is Spock and react to as though he's Spock, but that character is NOT authentically Spock.
You mean their ONE public kiss on the transporter pad that came AFTER Spock's breakdown and admission to his father that he has emotions and cannot control them?

Although he got there a very different way, Old Spock basically went though the same thing in TMP, realizing what folly an emotionless and purely logical life truly is. We then got a Spock who smiled a teeny bit in WoK, who wasn't afraid to tell Kirk what he meant to him. A Spock who laughed at the end of STIV and told Starfleet to "Go to hell" at the end of STVI.

What you see as "characterization rape," I see as personal growth.
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Old August 20 2013, 10:36 AM   #198
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

bbjeg wrote: View Post
If Kirk was in the Delta or Gamma Quadrant, dealing with the Borg or Dominion, or started going transwarp speeds it would be confusing for all.
How so ?

Don't get me wrong, I like NuTrek, "In to Darkness" too, but back then, show like TOS and TNG opened viewers minds, braking racial barriers, broadening their imaginition, with a moral base (and it got a bit preachy at times).
But was that Star Trek, really, or just a sign of the times ?
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Old August 20 2013, 10:44 AM   #199
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
My point is that if (for example) I'm willing to do research to understand the current plotline and character interactions on a damn soap opera
So don't assume everybody will do that like you or me. Fans sho started watching Trek in 2009 might not even be interested in the old timeline. Imagine their confusion when Vulcan is back.

You're the one who assumes people should agree with you.
No, I'm not. Whatever gave you that silly idea ? Disagreeing with you doesn't mean I want you to agree with me. It's called debating.

Yes, it does answer your question.
No, it doesn't. How does your opinion about how they handled the characters in the new timeline have anything to do with my question of what opportunities they have with the original timeline that they don't have with the new one ?
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Old August 20 2013, 12:44 PM   #200
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Okay... first of all, it's not just the FACT that realSpock and realUhura never went beyond mild flirtation - it's a FACT that Vulcan society in general didn't go in for public displays of affection such as those done by nuSpock and nuUhura. I find it very hard to believe that the Abramsverse Vulcans would be into it, either. Spock grew up in a "don't show your emotions in public and preferably not in private, either" culture - so why is he acting not only un-Vulcan, but also unprofessionally as a Starfleet officer? Saying "it's a reboot" just doesn't excuse it. That's not Spock. It's an actor we're expected to think is Spock and react to as though he's Spock, but that character is NOT authentically Spock.
You mean their ONE public kiss on the transporter pad that came AFTER Spock's breakdown and admission to his father that he has emotions and cannot control them?

Although he got there a very different way, Old Spock basically went though the same thing in TMP, realizing what folly an emotionless and purely logical life truly is. We then got a Spock who smiled a teeny bit in WoK, who wasn't afraid to tell Kirk what he meant to him. A Spock who laughed at the end of STIV and told Starfleet to "Go to hell" at the end of STVI.

What you see as "characterization rape," I see as personal growth.
That's right. I thought a key lesson for Spock in the 2009 movie was how emotions and their expression were not necessarily a bad thing, and it was his refusal to admit that that nearly doomed Earth. Before he learned that lesson (during the scene with his father), I was under the impression that his relationship with Uhura was very private. Remember, Spock is not necessarily an exemplar of Vulcan behaviour: in the very same film, he rejected the Vulcan Science Academy even though this was unprecedented in Vulcan history.

And as far as I know, there isn't a prohibition on romance between Starfleet officers, an instance that comes to mind is Balance of Terror, where officer Angela was engaged to her commanding officer Tomlinson. There are also numerous romantic relationships between other main characters like Jadzia and Worf, Torres and Paris, Riker and Troi, etc.

Last edited by ComicGuy89; August 20 2013 at 01:18 PM.
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Old August 20 2013, 01:59 PM   #201
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

The "prime timeline" is dead. Deal with it and move on.
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Old August 20 2013, 02:06 PM   #202
F. King Daniel
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

captain crow wrote: View Post
The "prime timeline" is dead. Deal with it and move on.
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Old August 20 2013, 02:24 PM   #203
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

ComicGuy89 wrote: View Post

And as far as I know, there isn't a prohibition on romance between Starfleet officers, an instance that comes to mind is Balance of Terror, where officer Angela was engaged to her commanding officer Tomlinson. There are also numerous romantic relationships between other main characters like Jadzia and Worf, Torres and Paris, Riker and Troi, etc.
How dare you use examples from the Prime timeline to shoot down complaints people have about the Abrams films!
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Old August 20 2013, 04:27 PM   #204
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Timewalker wrote: View Post



Which is your opinion, and you're entitled to it. And if you ever happen to write a nuTrek novel, I won't be buying it. You're an excellent author and I enjoy your work, but only to the point where you're writing in a universe I find enjoyable.

(and for the people who will promptly yell at me for "threatening" to not buy Greg Cox's books... don't bother. It's not a threat and not a tantrum - just a comment)

Thanks for the kind words! And don't worry. I hardly expect everyone to buy all of my books, regardless of the series or subject matter. (I've learned from hard experience that you cannot give XENA books away at a TREK convention--and vise versa.) And I don't expect DS9 fans to buy my TOS books just because my name is on it.There are lots of different flavors of Trek these days and not everybody is going to like Rocky Road.

Getting back to Spock and Uhura, I don't recall them hanging all over each other and playing kissyface on the bridge. There was one tender kiss, when Spock was "emotionally compromised," and that was it as far as PDAs are concerned. It's not like they're making out in the rec room or something.

"Geez, get a room!"
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Old August 20 2013, 05:01 PM   #205
ComicGuy89
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

BillJ wrote: View Post
ComicGuy89 wrote: View Post

And as far as I know, there isn't a prohibition on romance between Starfleet officers, an instance that comes to mind is Balance of Terror, where officer Angela was engaged to her commanding officer Tomlinson. There are also numerous romantic relationships between other main characters like Jadzia and Worf, Torres and Paris, Riker and Troi, etc.
How dare you use examples from the Prime timeline to shoot down complaints people have about the Abrams films!
Thank you, I was actually surprised at how many examples they were in the Prime timeline. The TOS "main" crew seems to be the exception, actually, but even their subordinates were not above open romance.

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Getting back to Spock and Uhura, I don't recall them hanging all over each other and playing kissyface on the bridge. There was one tender kiss, when Spock was "emotionally compromised," and that was it as far as PDAs are concerned. It's not like they're making out in the rec room or something.

"Geez, get a room!"
There was one more instance, at the Transporter room, but I thought it appropriate since it was essentially a suicide mission by Spock. They didn't show PDA as far as I remember in STiD, so it's not like it happens every other scene.
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Old August 20 2013, 05:05 PM   #206
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Well, King Daniel, I could produce another thousand-word essay, but frankly your meme tells the whole story (at least from my perspective) in a nutshell.

Though I will, of course (since I can't be shut up) try to summarize: Had no one ever seen Star Trek Into Darkness, but only this meme had been revealed instead, it would tell the story of:

1) a main character who requires some personal resemblance to the character of the past in order to tap into existing viewer interest and loyalty;
2) who is restricted from being exactly the same character as the past by means of a revised backstory, in order to enable some sense of artistic freedom;
3) who ends up being changed by the rewritten events of his past so drastically as to make him completely distinguished and separated from his former persona; and therefore in order to replenish a lost sense of continuity:
4) must channel or echo events that already happened in past stories prior to the rewriting of those events, in order to forestall viewer interest in the character from waning.

As a result, the new character is more bound and restrained than the old one. No wonder he's in pain.

DF "Unless I'm Mistaken and Spock's Really Holding Onto a Horta in That Meme" Scott
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Old August 20 2013, 05:39 PM   #207
Greg Cox
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

ComicGuy89 wrote: View Post

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Getting back to Spock and Uhura, I don't recall them hanging all over each other and playing kissyface on the bridge. There was one tender kiss, when Spock was "emotionally compromised," and that was it as far as PDAs are concerned. It's not like they're making out in the rec room or something.

"Geez, get a room!"
There was one more instance, at the Transporter room, but I thought it appropriate since it was essentially a suicide mission by Spock. They didn't show PDA as far as I remember in STiD, so it's not like it happens every other scene.
The transporter room kiss was actually the incident I was thinking of. The turbolift scene was a private moment between Spock and Uhura and so wasn't exactly a public display of affection. No one else was watching.

And, given that he's a half-human involved with a human, and raised by a human mother to boot, it seems plausible to me that this version of Spock would be willing to bend a little when it came to private displays of affection. It would not be logical to expect Uhura to act like a Vulcan at all times.

You get involved with a human, you gotta expect to meet her halfway sometimes.
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Old August 20 2013, 05:54 PM   #208
ComicGuy89
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
ComicGuy89 wrote: View Post

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
Getting back to Spock and Uhura, I don't recall them hanging all over each other and playing kissyface on the bridge. There was one tender kiss, when Spock was "emotionally compromised," and that was it as far as PDAs are concerned. It's not like they're making out in the rec room or something.

"Geez, get a room!"
There was one more instance, at the Transporter room, but I thought it appropriate since it was essentially a suicide mission by Spock. They didn't show PDA as far as I remember in STiD, so it's not like it happens every other scene.
The transporter room kiss was actually the incident I was thinking of. The turbolift scene was a private moment between Spock and Uhura and so wasn't exactly a public display of affection. No one else was watching.

And, given that he's a half-human involved with a human, and raised by a human mother to boot, it seems plausible to me that this version of Spock would be willing to bend a little when it came to private displays of affection. It would not be logical to expect Uhura to act like a Vulcan at all times.

You get involved with a human, you gotta expect to meet her halfway sometimes.
That also came almost immediately after Sarek admitted that he married Amanda because he loved her. Not for any diplomatic or (Vulcan) logical reason but simply because he loved her. Spock may have simply taken more than one cue from his parents.
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Old August 20 2013, 06:00 PM   #209
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

Nerys Myk lost me with his 'Reboots have been going on since stories first existed, back before they were called reboots' while 'New continuities aren't reboots aren't retcons', so I'm done with that.

Belz... wrote: View Post
bbjeg wrote: View Post
If Kirk was in the Delta or Gamma Quadrant, dealing with the Borg or Dominion, or started going transwarp speeds it would be confusing for all.
How so ?
You explain that without loosing the remaining old fans and confusing the new ones.

Don't get me wrong, I like NuTrek, "In to Darkness" too, but back then, show like TOS and TNG opened viewers minds, braking racial barriers, broadening their imagination, with a moral base (and it got a bit preachy at times).
But was that Star Trek, really, or just a sign of the times ?
Yes.

captain crow wrote: View Post
The "prime timeline" is dead. Deal with it and move on.
Blatant statements like, while the Prime Timeline is still making money in books and games, and after posts in this thread proved reboots don't always replace their predecessors (2003's "Hulk" was a reboot of the character which was discarded for 2008's "Incredible Hulk" which was more of a homage to the original TV series, and the same can be said about the original Spiderman trilogy (mutant slingers) and the Amazing Spiderman (web shooters), doesn't make sense.

Anyone who thinks that for the rest of eternity they're going to do nothing but Kirk reboots, and that 40 some years down the line, a Next Gen reboot, remake, or new continuity isn't even a possibility, is sad.

If you believe a Next Gen reboot is possible, they're going to pull from that so called 'dead' timeline as much as NuKirk being from Iowa and NuSpock being half Vulcan.

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Old August 20 2013, 06:46 PM   #210
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Re: Do fans want the prime timeline back?

bbjeg wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk lost me with his 'Reboots have been going on since stories first existed, back before they were called reboots'
Whats so confusing about that? People have been rewriting stories and creating new continuities for old characters since humans began telling stories. That's only been called a "reboot" in that last few decades.

New continuities aren't reboots aren't retcons', so I'm done with that.
Never said that. All I said is Ultimate X-men isn't quite a reboot because it didn't replace the old X-Men continuity. It exists parallel to the original continuity.

I'd still like to know how the Astonishing X-Men and the Bronze Age qualify as reboots.
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