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Old August 11 2013, 11:17 PM   #16
Robert Comsol
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Timo wrote: View Post
The Archon was duly retired, and new starship classes replaced it; simultaneously, an old surveyor type (say, the Daedalus class) was retired, and new surveyor classes replaced it. Scouts were retired and replaced; destroyers were retired and replaced; none had to serve in other roles a century later.
Do you also know when the Archon was retired? For all we know this starship could have still been in service while new classes of starships had arrived and outdated this old starship. Would it still have classified as a "starship"?

Commodore Mendez' remark about Pike's accident aboard an "old J-Class starship" still deserves further evaluation, IMHO.
Almost seems he wanted to tell Dr. McCoy that this had been a starship once but was "old" (new classification "cadet vessel"?) which apparently is obvious because it had been downgraded to J-Class.

Amidst the longevity of designs like the Miranda Class I feel that analogies to our current and rather short-lived navies will not really help us here.

Timo wrote: View Post
Routine landing and takeoff is a different matter altogether, and it doesn't really seem likely that the extremely tightly integrated Oberth saucer could really swim in and out of its "cradle" on a regular basis.
Very nice Tsiolkovsky allusion! But "extremely tightly integrated Oberth saucer"?!? The saucer rests flat on the warp sled and is apparently hold in place by the ventral knob and a couple of unseen clamps near the stern of the saucer module.

Timo wrote: View Post
The Archon and the Horizon both may have been fully transporter-capable; it's only the historically ignorant Kirk who suggests that the latter might not have familiarized the Iotians with the concept of teleportation. Logically, it would be very difficult to accept a transporter-less Starfleet vessel after ENT has solidified the introduction date of personnel transporters for Earth vessels...
Have you been drinking again too much from your bottle of GUT and Retcon Brandy?
If there's anybody who may be "historically" ignorant it's not Kirk or the producers and writers of the original series (no fault or contradiction whatsoever here) but those that came later and didn't do proper treknological research and/or decided to ignore what had been suggested and established in "The Piece of the Action" (Kirk a capable car driver anyone? ).

While the Daedalus Class may have had transporters or not, the First Contact protocols of that era may have called for a physical show of spaceship hardware, very much like the Vulcans did in ST VIII and I think this illustrates the issue almost too well.
A show of transporter technology may have been acceptable upon Second Contact (provided it did even exist, then, according to the TOS creators).

But whatever the case, the Horizon (or its primary sphere) did land on Sigma Iotia, that much is evident from the opening dialogue in the episode.

Timo wrote: View Post
If the Oberth really needed to get down and dirty, she could hover a few meters off the ground and lower a ladder for the intrepid surveyors to disembark on!
I'd love to see this illustrated in a believable fashion. Maybe I should have been more precise in the treatise: The grim fate of both the Horizon and the Essex suggests that bringing your whole ship into the atmosphere of the new natives isn't necessarily the best way to start relations ("Hope you don't mind that little radioactive fallout because our antimatter confinement failed?").

Anti-Gravity concerns notwithstanding, it's obviously more reasonable to land that part of your starship where there is less danger involved contaminating the natives with radioactivity...

disregarding the possibility that the USS Valiant from “A Taste of Armageddon” was an Oberth Class vessel would deprive the Star Trek Universe of an interesting and historic design evolution link
Timo wrote: View Post
Or, regarding the possibility would shrink the Star Trek universe by depriving us of a whole category of ships parallel to the starship lineage...
There are plenty of fan proposals what those lesser ships could look like, so I don't really see the big loss you are trying to propagate.

I think to have an idea what the ill-fated USS Valiant from the Eminiar VII expedition could have looked like plus the prospect of looking at the design link between Enterprise and Reliant is more, not less. YMMV, of course.

Bob
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Old August 11 2013, 11:56 PM   #17
Timo
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Do you also know when the Archon was retired?
Hopefully long ago. We know the contemporary Daedalus class didn't serve for particularly long... Unless she existed long before ENT, that is, and somehow gained NX-style interstellar legs later on in her life.

For all we know this starship could have still been in service while new classes of starships had arrived and outdated this old starship. Would it still have classified as a "starship"?
No doubt. Why should Starfleet not have more than one type of starship in service at any given time?

Unless, of course, some really drastic development left all older types undeserving of this designation. But we haven't seen such giant leaps in what we have been shown of the Trek pseudohistory.

Almost seems he wanted to tell Dr. McCoy that this had been a starship once but was "old" (new classification "cadet vessel"?) which apparently is obvious because it had been downgraded to J-Class.


So she's not a starship because the characters say she is? So she's to be considered "downgraded" because of...what exactly?

Sorry, doesn't wash at all. And furthermore, has nothing to do with the idea that Starfleet would operate vessels other than starship, or with the fact that the very intent behind the Grissom was to show such a vessel.

If there's anybody who may be "historically" ignorant it's not Kirk
It's not as if he knows anything about the old Romulan War, for example. He thinks he knows something about 19th century United States, sure, but even that is a somewhat cliched take on it.

As for the opening dialogue of "Piece of the Action", well, Kirk has been frustrated in his attempts to explain "time lag" and even "galaxy" to Okmyx. It's pretty natural that he'd begin baby-talking about transporters as well.

"Hope you don't mind that little radioactive fallout because our antimatter confinement failed?"
If the ship can't be trusted not to blow up, interstellar relations is among the least concerns of the crew...

There are plenty of fan proposals what those lesser ships could look like, so I don't really see the big loss you are trying to propagate.
Why, your attempt to evict the one canonical, onscreen example of such in the movies from existence!

Are you going to categorically stamp out the fan vessels next or what?

the design link between Enterprise and Reliant
...And even there we disagree. Trying to find links is tantamount to stamping out variety, whereas the Reliant was specifically designed to create variety.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old August 12 2013, 12:02 AM   #18
Robert Comsol
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Dukhat wrote: View Post
I'm not going to belabor too much about the ship's size, as most ships in Star Trek are quite inconsistent in this regard. However, I personally believe the ship is a bit larger than 120 meters.
I'm well aware of the discrepancies in size, as featured in TNG, but the vessel's creator Nilo Rodis designed it for a length of 120 meters because he also specified this size in his comparison chart (which then was authenticated by Andrew Probert).



Is there really a good reason to "believe" that in Kirk's era the vessel exceeded an overall length of 395 feet?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
You do realize that there are other Oberths with names that have nothing to do with science?
Yes, like the multi-talent Peter and the video game programmer Christian whose contributions to mankind will have outranked the accomplishments of Hermann, one of the three founding fathers (next to Tsiolkovsky and Goddard) of rocketry and astronautics, so Starfleet will name a class of vessels after Peter and Christian.

Sorry, I can't believe you are debating what is so obvious. You are certain you're not trying to find fault?

Bob
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Old August 12 2013, 12:28 AM   #19
Robert Comsol
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Timo wrote: View Post
There are plenty of fan proposals what those lesser ships could look like, so I don't really see the big loss you are trying to propagate.
Why, your attempt to evict the one canonical, onscreen example of such in the movies from existence!

Are you going to categorically stamp out the fan vessels next or what?
What we see in ST III is the Federation Survey Vessel Grissom, which apparently may have a untold back story.

So I can't see how extending an existence qualifies as evicting an existence. That's a contradiction. Maybe you should sleep things over, at least that's what I'm going to do now.

Bob
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Old August 12 2013, 12:40 AM   #20
Dukhat
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Is there really a good reason to "believe" that in Kirk's era the vessel exceeded an overall length of 395 feet?
I wasn't debating the size of the Enterprise. I was saying that I think the Oberth is larger than 120 meters, and my belief has nothing to do with that chart. As has been shown on multiple occasions (especially with the Bird of Prey), scale can change on a whim in Star Trek.

Yes, like the multi-talent Peter and the video game programmer Christian whose contributions to mankind will have outranked the accomplishments of Hermann, one of the three founding fathers (next to Tsiolkovsky and Goddard) of rocketry and astronautics, so Starfleet will name a class of vessels after Peter and Christian.
Sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about, so I'm going to assume you're just being facetious here unless you tell me otherwise.

Sorry, I can't believe you are debating what is so obvious. You are certain you're not trying to find fault?
Since you didn't attribute any quotes from me for the above statement, for now I'm going to assume this is a blanket response about what I wrote about ILM. If so, then you and I have vastly different opinions about what constitutes "obvious." I'm sorry you don't like being challenged about your beliefs about the origin of the study model's name and ILM's motivations with STIII. But if you don't want criticism, then you shouldn't post things asking for people's opinions.
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Old August 12 2013, 09:23 AM   #21
Robert Comsol
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Dukhat wrote: View Post
You do realize that there are other Oberths with names that have nothing to do with science?
I see, you were referring to other "Oberth Class ships" and not other "Oberths" (i.e. people with that name).

But regardless, my point was that from the 3 fathers of rocket science, 2 of these had been honored by naming an Oberth Class vessel after them, but not Robert Goddard, the third one (as far as we know).

I do realize there are other Oberth Class ships with names that have nothing to do with science, but I'm at a loss what it is you were trying to suggest with your remark (no necessity to name an Oberth Class ship after Goddard because he will be appropriately honored in TNG when they name a shuttlecraft after him?)

Bob
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Old August 12 2013, 09:58 AM   #22
Robert Comsol
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Timo wrote: View Post
Whether she really is a scout class vessel as of the 2280s is uncertain; Kirk isn't quite convinced that Chekov's observation of a "scout class vessel" should be explained by it being the Grissom, but rather just says, with doubt in his voice, that it "could be" that ship.
CHEKOV (OC): I'd swear something that was there sir.
KIRK (OC): What did you see?
CHEKOV: For an instant ...a scout class vessel.
KIRK: Could be Grissom. Patch in the hailing frequency. Grissom, this is Enterprise calling. Please come in.

I think you are reading too much into this. Ken Ralston said it's a "Scout Class vehicle" which matches the onscreen dialogue.

The one thing that hasn't been mentioned that, is that the Federation Survey Vessel USS Grissom is supposedly a member of the Scout Class.

What Chekov actually sees is Kruge's vessel, which obviously does have characteristics of a scouting "bird" but in contrast to the characteristics of a surveying "turtle" which could better qualify as an analogy for the Grissom, IMHO.

Too bad, we do not learn what it is Chekov is seeing on his displays (mass and/or volume of the UFO?) but I think it may have something to do with size.

The Bird of Prey has a length of 360', the Grissom of 395'. Theoretically "Scout Class" may just refer to size, opposite to larger vessels that would qualify for the Destroyer or the Starship Class.

Inevitably, these classes would have to be adjusted on a regular basis. What could have qualified as a starship in the early 23rd Century has "become" too small by the late 23rd Century to still belong to the Starship Class.

This could also explain why ships of the Constitution, the Miranda and most likely the Constellation Class (e.g. Stargazer, Hathaway), too, belonged to the Starship Class in the late 23rd Century but no longer do so in the 24th Century, next to the larger starships of the Ambassador and Galaxy Class (considering that the Hathaway in "Peak Performance" is referred to as a 80-year-old "starcruiser" and not a "starship").

Bob
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Old August 12 2013, 03:31 PM   #23
Timo
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

So I can't see how extending an existence qualifies as evicting an existence. That's a contradiction.
How so? If somebody wins, somebody else loses, especially in the zero-sum game of finite resources in the TOS movies.

By allowing the Grissom to hog more of Starfleet history, you're narrowing down the niche for other ships, types and stories. Which is the exact opposite of what ST3 model work was all about! With three prominent ships, two of these all-new, the movie made Starfleet more diverse than ever - and now we're supposed to believe that the Grissom doesn't represent diversity after all, and that "Federation Survey Vessel" is just a fancy name for a retired starship?

Vast effort was put into creating something the audience wouldn't mistake for another generic starship. Apparently, it was wasted effort...

I think you are reading too much into this.
Isn't that a hoot...

Timo Saloniemi
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Old August 12 2013, 04:52 PM   #24
yenny
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Retiring doesn't always means being decomission. It mean that a ship could had been removed from first line duty and transfer to other duties.
Look at the Daedalus class. The USS. Carolina NCC-160 a Daedalus class itself was still in service during the time that Captain Kirk was in command of the Enterprise.

But also, it doesn't mean that they been on active duty during that whole time period. They could easily had been taking off of acting service and put in moatball. Then some years later, taking out of moatball, refited and put back on active service.
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Old August 12 2013, 05:37 PM   #25
Robert Comsol
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Timo wrote: View Post
With three prominent ships, two of these all-new, the movie made Starfleet more diverse than ever - and now we're supposed to believe that the Grissom doesn't represent diversity after all, and that "Federation Survey Vessel" is just a fancy name for a retired starship?
Well, it's apparently not without historic precedent:

MENDEZ: Inspection tour of a cadet vessel. Old Class J starship. One of the baffle plates ruptured.

I don't believe that the Oberth Class is the only survey vessel the Federation has at its disposal, certainly there are current designs created just to perform this task but possibly with less armament than Grissom (as a former starship or cruiser) might have had and therefore was picked for this delicate mission.
And apparently with a enough firepower to make Kirk concerned, wondering whether Esteban would open fire upon Enterprise or not.

On the other hand I find it somewhat unrealistic that we hardly (almost never) saw the introduction of new designs but in ST III "suddenly" witness two brand-new Federation designs. To assume one of these had been (unseen) in service before would add a little more realism, IMHO.

You may (and will) believe what you want. If my treatise ensures that Trekkers, that feel the ship to be an older design, will not be greeted with a "Picard facepalm maneuver" in the future, I have accomplished what I foremost intended.

Timo wrote: View Post
I think you are reading too much into this.
Isn't that a hoot...
...yes, it is.

I won't exclude the possibility I'm reading too much into this, but my observations (on which the theory is based) are laid out and you are free to like or dislike, discuss or ignore these.

Bob
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Old August 12 2013, 07:28 PM   #26
Timo
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

The USS. Carolina NCC-160 a Daedalus class itself was still in service during the time that Captain Kirk was in command of the Enterprise.
Except that she probably wasn't. Nothing in the episodes or movies suggests that any of these ships would have survived past the canonically announced retirement date of 2196.

Certainly the vessel named Carolina in "Friday's Child" is safely excluded from being a Daedalus, as Scotty recognizes her as a freighter with a design speed of less than warp two. If she were not a freighter by design, this would not apply.

MENDEZ: Inspection tour of a cadet vessel. Old Class J starship. One of the baffle plates ruptured.
...And so we have a starship (which happens to be old) doing what starships do (among these tasks the teaching of cadets, as per ST2). Hardly a case of reassignment.

And apparently with a enough firepower to make Kirk concerned, wondering whether Esteban would open fire upon Enterprise or not.
This is neither here nor there, as Kirk would have reason for worry even if Esteban only had two hand phasers. Kirk is not about to fight for his survival - he's about to get Spock's reanimated body out without having to do any more harm to fellow Starfleet personnel.

It's simply ridiculous to assign any sort of warship properties, past or present, to a ship whose dramatic role in the movie was to not be a warship. The drama called for a ship of harmless and helpless scientists who are savaged by Klingons, and that's what we saw.

Whether it would be realistic for Starfleet to send a damsel in distress is another matter. But a school of thought for that does have a leg to stand on: not only is helplessness exactly what we actually see on screen, but it is also a plausible extreme reaction to the delicateness of the political situation. Half-measures would probably be avoided, in good and ill: a properly armed but lone vessel would just provoke but couldn't actually defend the Genesis secrets against a determined enemy.

To assume one of these had been (unseen) in service before would add a little more realism, IMHO.
Unseen as a dedicated surveyor, yes. Unseen as a centuries-old warhorse - nope. No need for that, no place for that, no credibility in that.

my observations (on which the theory is based) are laid out and you are free to like or dislike, discuss or ignore these.
Umm, all of the above, really, thank you very much. "Ignore" will from now on only apply to the idea that this ship would be a former frontline combat vessel.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old August 12 2013, 07:34 PM   #27
yenny
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
With three prominent ships, two of these all-new, the movie made Starfleet more diverse than ever - and now we're supposed to believe that the Grissom doesn't represent diversity after all, and that "Federation Survey Vessel" is just a fancy name for a retired starship?
Well, it's apparently not without historic precedent:

MENDEZ: Inspection tour of a cadet vessel. Old Class J starship. One of the baffle plates ruptured.

I don't believe that the Oberth Class is the only survey vessel the Federation has at its disposal, certainly there are current designs created just to perform this task but possibly with less armament than Grissom (as a former starship or cruiser) might have had and therefore was picked for this delicate mission.
And apparently with a enough firepower to make Kirk concerned, wondering whether Esteban would open fire upon Enterprise or not.

On the other hand I find it somewhat unrealistic that we hardly (almost never) saw the introduction of new designs but in ST III "suddenly" witness two brand-new Federation designs. To assume one of these had been (unseen) in service before would add a little more realism, IMHO.

You may (and will) believe what you want. If my treatise ensures that Trekkers, that feel the ship to be an older design, will not be greeted with a "Picard facepalm maneuver" in the future, I have accomplished what I foremost intended.

Timo wrote: View Post
I think you are reading too much into this.
Isn't that a hoot...
...yes, it is.

I won't exclude the possibility I'm reading too much into this, but my observations (on which the theory is based) are laid out and you are free to like or dislike, discuss or ignore these.

Bob
There is the S.S. Beagle. A small class-IV stardrive survey vessel that had a crew of 47, which was either a Intrepid type, a Neptune class or Oberth. Then there's the Soyuz class.
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Old August 12 2013, 07:52 PM   #28
Timo
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

There is the S.S. Beagle. A small class-IV stardrive survey vessel that had a crew of 47, which was either a Intrepid type, a Neptune class or Oberth.
Umm, why? It sounds a bit silly that Starfleet would be donating pre-2150s types for civilian use when civilians at that time could surely afford better. And the Beagle being an Oberth is at most a possibility - but what we know for sure is that she wasn't a Starfleet vessel, and all the Oberths we have ever seen have had Starfleet pennants on them.

Sure, there's the Vico, which some people want to treat as a civilian ship. But I don't really see why. She's got the pennants, she's got (dead) people in uniforms, she was "sent" to study the Black Cluster and subsequently lost contact with a Starfleet starbase...

Is the "civilian" identity of this ship based on there being a kid aboard? Doesn't work too well in the case of the E-D herself! Is it the NAR registry? Kirk's ride in ST6 had such a registry as well.

The Beagle is probably a never seen type. You know, the more, the merrier?

Then there's the Soyuz class.
Yup. What about it?

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Old August 12 2013, 11:11 PM   #29
Robert Comsol
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

yenny wrote: View Post
There is the S.S. Beagle. A small class-IV stardrive survey vessel that had a crew of 47, which was either a Intrepid type, a Neptune class or Oberth.
Nice catch! Of course, we do not know what type or class this vessel was. But obviously it was a "survey vessel" and the crew size may be compatible with an Oberth Class of Kirk's era.

Unfortunately I haven't done the math how many people could comfortably fit into the primary hull, but it's probably not that much taller than two decks at 395' overall length.

@ Timo

What makes you think that civilians could afford better ships during the TOS era?

Bob
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Old August 13 2013, 02:06 AM   #30
The_Beef
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

It is, of course, worth considering that the Oberth could be an older vessel with a service record extending into TOS or before, without it necessarily being at one time a former frontline cruiser. I'm more intrigued by the possibility that its appearance could hint at a pre-TOS design lineage than the argument of what its role might have been 50-100 years before STIII.
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