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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old September 5 2013, 09:14 PM   #196
Praetor
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

I think it would be interesting to take a side view of both, approximate the size of the docking hatch on the Oberth model, and then scale the two accordingly. I think we'll end up with a Grissom close to 200 meters long.

Maybe I'll try that this evening.
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Old September 6 2013, 12:08 AM   #197
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Praetor wrote: View Post
I think it would be interesting to take a side view of both, approximate the size of the docking hatch on the Oberth model, and then scale the two accordingly. I think we'll end up with a Grissom close to 200 meters long.

Maybe I'll try that this evening.
So what's the verdict? I've been enjoying this thread immensely!
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Old September 6 2013, 02:20 AM   #198
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

I'm estimating 189m for the TNG Grissom scaled against the circle docking port (based on a 305m Enterprise). 220m if you use a 355m Enterprise.
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Old September 6 2013, 02:41 AM   #199
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Prepare for fuzzy math!

So, I used this image of the Oberth, and estimated that the airlock is about the same width as the pylon. (I duplicated the double lines I used to size the airlock and moved them.)



I hope Reverend forgives me borrowing his side view, but it's pretty much the most accurate one anywhere. Guesstimating on relative placement, we end up with this. The red dot represents the airlock. The sizing and shuttles are Reverend's from his size assumptions.



Making use of my 2 pixels = 1 meter scaled 305 meter refit from the Excelsior thread, I scaled down the previous image until the red dot representing the decal on the Oberth matched the size of the airlock on the Enterprise.


Note the yellow lines representing decks, which I scaled from the generally accepted two deck thickness of the Enterprise saucer. (And yes, I know they're not evenly spaced, but it's close enough for this.)

Using that same 1 meter = 2 pixels scale, we end up with an Oberth that cozily fits 4 decks in the saucer, adjusted downward to accomodate the indented ring detail on the saucer top.

She's about 239 meters long, and about 71 meters tall.



Obviously, this is based on the visual accuracy of my scaling of the airlock and then scaling the Oberth to the Enterprise. In fact, I shrank the red dot slightly to fit the actual size of the airlock indent itself and tried to scale the images accordingly, so if anything she might be scaled a pixel too small.

In any case, if we go by the airlock, I think this is about where we end up.

What does everyone think?
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Old September 6 2013, 10:52 AM   #200
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Seems too big now...

Maybe that wasn't a docking ring. Maybe it was a refueling hatch of some sort. I mean yes, it looks like it in the images, but I don't know. I like it being a smaller ship.
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Old September 6 2013, 12:42 PM   #201
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Patrickivan wrote: View Post
Maybe that wasn't a docking ring. Maybe it was a refueling hatch of some sort. I mean yes, it looks like it in the images, but I don't know. I like it being a smaller ship.
The size of the "circle" has the characteristics of an airlock / docking ring and the other outer hull markings (Starfleet insignia, red stripes on Engineering hull) look like a very good match.

The previous analysis of other fans made two suggestions for a 220m + ship based on the TNG screen cross-sections and the torn-open model of the Vico.

But anyway, we'd need some place on the ship to rationalize the bridge airlock seen in "The Naked Now". Unless you want to argue we didn't see the bow of Tsiolkovsky's slab the saucer sits on, the engineering hull looks like the only candidate for this kind of airlock or "emergency hatch".

I think the TNG (TV) size is 220m + but I still think we are also looking at a version only 120m in length, i.e. the Grissom and Copernicus (intended), the one at the end of ST VII (obviously) and maybe the Tsiolkovsky and some others, too.

In the size comparisons with Kirk's Enterprise the Oberth Class from TNG definitely looks too big, but then it's a good thing we never saw those ships next to one another in TNG.

Bob
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Old September 6 2013, 03:13 PM   #202
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

I'm thinking it should be around 180 meters or so. That way there's no discrepancy between Robert's "TNG size" and "movie size."
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Old September 6 2013, 03:44 PM   #203
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Patrickivan wrote: View Post
Seems too big now...

Maybe that wasn't a docking ring. Maybe it was a refueling hatch of some sort. I mean yes, it looks like it in the images, but I don't know. I like it being a smaller ship.
Alas, I'm pretty sure it has to be a docking port. We could choose to ignore it, but it appears identical to the one on the AMT/Ertl decal sheet for the Enterprise. But hang on, there's an out.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The previous analysis of other fans made two suggestions for a 220m + ship based on the TNG screen cross-sections and the torn-open model of the Vico.
Glad you brought that up. I was staring at my analysis and staring at this:


And something obvious came to mind.

Whoever added the decal to the original Grissom model during TNG probably also made the Vico model. That might very well be Mr. Jein. It seems almost like too much of a coincidence that the scale represented by this model and the scale I just backed into match up.

So it seems the modelling department believed in a larger size for the Oberth while the graphics department (as seen in the Vico cutaway) believed in a smaller size.

(Another tangent point comes to mind... the Vico, with her NAR designation, still has what we've always assumed to be the Starfleet arrowhead. Weird.)

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
But anyway, we'd need some place on the ship to rationalize the bridge airlock seen in "The Naked Now". Unless you want to argue we didn't see the bow of Tsiolkovsky's slab the saucer sits on, the engineering hull looks like the only candidate for this kind of airlock or "emergency hatch".
Yeah, that's a tough one. Reverend put a bridge in the bow of the pod, and rationalized there was a hidden hatch there - which is frankly as good an excuse as any. The problem with using the airlock hatch decal as seen is that the airlock as seen in "The Naked Now" doesn't quite match.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I think the TNG (TV) size is 220m + but I still think we are also looking at a version only 120m in length, i.e. the Grissom and Copernicus (intended), the one at the end of ST VII (obviously) and maybe the Tsiolkovsky and some others, too.

In the size comparisons with Kirk's Enterprise the Oberth Class from TNG definitely looks too big, but then it's a good thing we never saw those ships next to one another in TNG.
Devil's advocate here... why is it too big compared to the Constitution?

The "saucer" on the Oberth is a fairly tiny, four deck affair at the larger size. If the pylon underneath is largely uninhabitable, with machinery and cargo bays, and the pod itself is mostly one big equipment bay... she may be big but she doesn't really win in terms of volume. Plus, if she is this big, I'm reasonably certain a turbolift could comfortably fit down the pylons, making it not such a big deal to access the pod.

Plus, all we really have as far as intent is the "mid-size Federation science vessel" line from TSFS script, and the ambiguous "scout class vessel" exchange from the same. She's not as big as the Enterprise, so that could work for me as mid-sized.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
I'm thinking it should be around 180 meters or so. That way there's no discrepancy between Robert's "TNG size" and "movie size."
I have to agree - the half-dozen sizes of bird-of-prey are bad enough. I'd rather find a happy medium.

We could, of course, simply ignore the airlock decal, or choose to believe that there's one there, but not be tied down to the 239 meter size.

Also, another thought occurs to me while staring at the design. Regarding the pod, the silvery details on top and front of the pod almost suggest to me that this silver element sits like a tank nested inside the structure located aft; almost like the aft structure is just a faring or housing for the silver tank thingy. Now, obviously the way the aft structure curves around the front doesn't make the silver part interchangeable (at least not easily) but it's certainly an interesting thought that maybe there's some big thing or collection of things in the silver tank that "actually" takes up most of the pod.
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Old September 7 2013, 01:08 AM   #204
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Praetor wrote: View Post
The problem with using the airlock hatch decal as seen is that the airlock as seen in "The Naked Now" doesn't quite match.


Bob
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Old September 7 2013, 01:55 AM   #205
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

I mean, the airlocks that belong to those decals are established as being circular things with half-circle doors. The one on the Tsiolkovsky was of a noticeably different shape. Of course, it's possible all Starfleet airlock hatch decals look the same.

If it's different, that actually does make my scaling above too big... and in fact makes it somewhat impossible to scale the airlock decal to the Enterprise.
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Old September 8 2013, 09:45 PM   #206
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Praetor wrote: View Post
The one on the Tsiolkovsky was of a noticeably different shape. Of course, it's possible all Starfleet airlock hatch decals look the same.
How can you be sure? We only saw that airlock from the inside.

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Old September 9 2013, 08:22 AM   #207
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
The one on the Tsiolkovsky was of a noticeably different shape. Of course, it's possible all Starfleet airlock hatch decals look the same.
How can you be sure? We only saw that airlock from the inside.

Bob
That airlock was on the bridge, not the secondary hull, and it obviously was not meant for a shuttle to dock to it. It also doesn't correspond to any exterior part of the model, probably because no one knew which model would be used when that scene was filmed.
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Old September 9 2013, 11:40 AM   #208
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Seriously, who puts a door to space on the bridge of a starship? It isn't even a technically an airlock because it was just the one door.
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Old September 9 2013, 12:17 PM   #209
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

Dukhat wrote: View Post
That airlock was on the bridge, not the secondary hull, and it obviously was not meant for a shuttle to dock to it.
Assuming that all command bridges have to be in the center and at the top of any saucer your conclusion would seem correct.

However, if the saucer module (back to the original intention of this thread) was merely a planet landing capable mission module we might be looking at the possibility that the main bridge was located within the engineering pod.

The dialogue refers to this airlock as an "emergency hatch".

I agree this is emphasized what seem to be partition doors that don't move sideways but vertically up or down. While probably not standard procedure, I don't see why this emergency airlock could not be used for a docking maneuver should the need ever arise (this is not 2001 ).

As an emergency hatch it would definitely require rationalization.

Either as part of a landing saucer module (like on the Klingon BoP in ST IV) or, as Timo suggested, near the lowest part of the vessel to allow a (Hindenburg-style?) evacuation once the whole ship has landed.

Or the bridge is in the secondary hull and because it would take the bridge crew too long to climb to the detachable saucer module they have to put on EVA suits and abandon the bridge and the engineering pod in this fashion, hoping to be picked up by the saucer module.

I know, it sounds weird, but lifeboats are a no-go, IMHO. Can't exclude the possibility that the bridge crew abandons the ship before somebody realizes they didn't notify their crewmates in the saucer module - and up it blows along with the rest of the ship.

Dukhat wrote: View Post
It also doesn't correspond to any exterior part of the model, probably because no one knew which model would be used when that scene was filmed.
But I believe "canon" demands we come up with a rationalization for the scene from "The Naked Now".

I think "ship of riddles" doesn't qualify, it's more like the "ship that puts us between rocks and hard places".

Bob
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Old September 9 2013, 04:35 PM   #210
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Re: Oberth Class – the missing link between Enterprise and Reliant

I have always been inclined to thing the set builders didn't want to spend the cash to build an angled wall that would remotely match the exterior of the Tsiolkovsky for a one-off scene, and leave it at that.
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