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Old August 15 2013, 10:06 PM   #121
DalekJim
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

It's very good, but simple and largely unmemorable compared to the two books it is sandwiched in-between. You'll whizz through it, enjoy it, but not recall most of it a few weeks later.
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Old August 15 2013, 10:22 PM   #122
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

lurok wrote: View Post
Lindley wrote: View Post
Space travel is expensive but not insurmountably so. I suppose they were approaching it like moving to a new house, more than as a real one-way trip.
I thought the Lynch film conveyed this really well. I imagined it was like those British families who moved out to the colonies for years, perhaps decades, but still kept a place back home.

Hound of UIster wrote: View Post
Caladan was lost to them. It was given to the Fenrings by the Emperor. They probably wouldn't have been allowed back.
Reverend wrote: View Post
Really? I must have missed that. I had always thought they'd left Caladan under the stewardship of a vassal house or some such.
I must have missed that too. Perhaps he meant given to Fenrigs as reward, considering the Atreides were going to be wiped out anyway. At least, that was the plan.
No. They gave up Caladan to take up residence on Arrakis. The Fenrings were given Caladan by the Emperor. This was mentioned in the appendix section.
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Old August 15 2013, 11:41 PM   #123
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

DalekJim wrote: View Post
kirk55555 wrote: View Post
Writing a fiction book like an old religious text is not the way to write a book that people can/want to read, it seems more like a style over substance way of doing things, which The Silmarillion has always gicen me the impression of.
So people should never write complicated books written in interesting new ways, and be content to settle for only pulpy, dumbed down action novels?

He seemed to care more about how he wrote it than if it was readable to people.
I think every author of literature should think like this.

Yes, because every novel thats not written like the author just wanted to write the most pretentious thing ever is a dumbed down action novel I've read very few dumbed down action novels. Regardless of the cracks people make, 90% of star wars books (and about 80% of Star Trek novels) aren't dumbed down action books. A book is written for people to read. Making a book that cares more about style then telling a coherent story is ok, there is obviously an audience for it. But when it comes to memorable, complex characters, they don't just exist in classics like LOTR and Dune, and good books aren't defined by how much the author cared about style over actually telling a story.

That said, people who look down their noses at anything written to tell a story over sounding/looking pretty annoy me. I can admit that The Silmarillion probably has some good story ideas, if it could only tell them in readable book form. Everyone likes what they like, I don't think its stupid to like the Silmarillion, I just think it transends complex into downright unreadable, atleast to me. I'll admit that while The Silmarillion is unreadable to me other people can understand it easily. I don't think its the complexity but the way it was done. I just don't enjoy the way the book was written, so I can't get through it. Its not that I literally can't read it. If I really had to, I could finish and understand the book. I'm just so turned off by the style that its practically unreadable.
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Old August 16 2013, 12:18 AM   #124
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Hound of UIster wrote: View Post
lurok wrote: View Post
Lindley wrote: View Post
Space travel is expensive but not insurmountably so. I suppose they were approaching it like moving to a new house, more than as a real one-way trip.
I thought the Lynch film conveyed this really well. I imagined it was like those British families who moved out to the colonies for years, perhaps decades, but still kept a place back home.



Reverend wrote: View Post
Really? I must have missed that. I had always thought they'd left Caladan under the stewardship of a vassal house or some such.
I must have missed that too. Perhaps he meant given to Fenrigs as reward, considering the Atreides were going to be wiped out anyway. At least, that was the plan.
No. They gave up Caladan to take up residence on Arrakis. The Fenrings were given Caladan by the Emperor. This was mentioned in the appendix section.
I just looked it up and you're half right. It says he was named "Siridar-Absentia" of Caladan. I'm not familiar with the term, indeed I'm pretty sure it's made-up, but I think "Siridar" was used as a prefix to the Baron's title, so it's probably an indication of planetary leadership. So "Siridar-Absentia" probably means "in the absence of the ruler", which is probably why I thought remembered mention of some sort of stewardship.

I'm sure the intent would have been to give it to Fenring permanently, or since he had no house and was himself sterile, leave the planet in limbo until after he died, then assign it to some noble house or other. Not that it mattered of course, since Jessica & Gurney got the title back and Fenring ended up sharing Shaddam's exile on Salusa Secundus.

I always wondered what happened to him. One assumes he died (or more likely assassinated) before Shaddam as I can't see him taking a back seat to Wessica's plotting.

He was only a minor character, but he was easily one of the more interesting. I was always disappointed that he wasn't used in the Lynch film and the way he was depicted in the mini-series bore very little resemblance IMO.
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Old August 16 2013, 12:28 AM   #125
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

^^^So he doesn't appear again in the novels? It seemed like they were setting him up for something and than nothing. From what I saw of him in Dune he seemed like an interesting character.
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Old August 16 2013, 12:30 AM   #126
DalekJim
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

You never see the Fenrings again in the main Dune canon. A shame really, as they were characters that really fascinated me.
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Old August 16 2013, 01:44 AM   #127
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Reverend wrote: View Post
I always wondered what happened to him. One assumes he died (or more likely assassinated) before Shaddam as I can't see him taking a back seat to Wessica's plotting.
I always wondered whatever happened to the daughter his wife had with Feyd Rautha. Given how it was mentioned, I thought it might have been a future plot.
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Old August 16 2013, 02:15 AM   #128
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Hound of UIster wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post
I always wondered what happened to him. One assumes he died (or more likely assassinated) before Shaddam as I can't see him taking a back seat to Wessica's plotting.
I always wondered whatever happened to the daughter his wife had with Feyd Rautha. Given how it was mentioned, I thought it might have been a future plot.
Didn't Fennring go into exile with Shaddam on Salusa Secondus?
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Old August 16 2013, 03:47 AM   #129
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

kirk55555 wrote: View Post
<snip>
I grew up reading the King James Bible so perhaps I had a head start when it came to reading The Silmarillion. Epic history is not everyone's cup of tea, for sure. I recommend you go to the library and find The Children of Hurin. Christopher Tolkien took one of his father's most complete stories from the Sil and, using his father's extra writings (he is no Brian Herbert), he turned it into an actual novel.

Be warned that it is not a happy novel, by any means. But it is good.
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Old August 16 2013, 07:02 AM   #130
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

The thing about Caladan and the Atreides having to give it up is how their control of Dune was different from the Harkonnens.

The Emperor gave the Harkonnens a "Quasi-Fief" contract over Dune, wherein the Harkonnens wouldn't rule Dune or anything like that. They'd just be there to administer the Spice Mining operations and all the profits that gave them. So the Baron would still have Giedi Prime and he'd send a subordinate (Rabban in this case) to oversee things and have some Harkonnen troops out there too.

The Emperor gave the Atreides a "Fief-Complete" which meant they actually would rule the planet itself instead of just being hired help. This is way better than "Quasi-Fief" since it means they'd rule the planet.

Of course, this was all part of the trap to get them away from their secure power base on Caladan.
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Old August 16 2013, 07:48 AM   #131
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I need a little clarification on that actually. Why did the Emperor want Duke Leto killed? Was it just because he felt he was becoming too powerful of a leader?
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Old August 16 2013, 07:49 AM   #132
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I'm sure I have a memory of the Fenrings in one of the BH/KJA books? Only because, as others have said, the Count seemed a fascinating character and it was interesting to see him again. Think it might have been Paul Of or Winds Of Dune?
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Old August 16 2013, 09:07 AM   #133
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Hound of UIster wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post
I always wondered what happened to him. One assumes he died (or more likely assassinated) before Shaddam as I can't see him taking a back seat to Wessica's plotting.
I always wondered whatever happened to the daughter his wife had with Feyd Rautha. Given how it was mentioned, I thought it might have been a future plot.
One assumes she fell under Leto II's control once he took over the Bene Gesserit breeding program. He could hardly afford to have someone capable of producing another quisatz haderach running around the place. Personally though, I'm betting he bred her with an Idaho ghola.

But yeah, you'd think she'd have had a role to play in CoD. Most likely as a potential bride for Leto.

Aldo wrote: View Post
I need a little clarification on that actually. Why did the Emperor want Duke Leto killed? Was it just because he felt he was becoming too powerful of a leader?
I think it was a combination of that and his popularity with the Landsraad. IIRC Shaddam feared that he could rally the houses against him and take the throne. I think it's said that the only reason the Imperial throne was never successfully threatened in the past is because the Noble Houses were always too busy with their own rivalries and alliances--a situation any sane Emperor does his best to perpetuate. While the Sardaukar can easily handle one or two houses making a direct attack, most of them at once would just be overwhelming.

This also ties into why he engineers a trap with the Baron willing taking the blame/credit. If the other houses caught wind of his part in the affair, it'd cause the very uprising he was trying to avoid. He must have been pretty sure of the Duke's intentions to take that kind of risk.
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Old August 16 2013, 01:08 PM   #134
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

InklingStar wrote:
I recommend you go to the library and find The Children of Hurin. Christopher Tolkien took one of his father's most complete stories from the Sil and, using his father's extra writings (he is no Brian Herbert), he turned it into an actual novel.
I haven't bothered to check it out yet. The way I look at it, I read one version of this story in The Silmarillion. Then I read another version of part of it in Unfinished Tales. Then I read another version in The Book of Lost Tales. I'm sure the novel version is more fleshed out but it feels like ground that's already been covered.
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Old August 16 2013, 01:38 PM   #135
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

lurok wrote: View Post
I'm sure I have a memory of the Fenrings in one of the BH/KJA books? Only because, as others have said, the Count seemed a fascinating character and it was interesting to see him again. Think it might have been Paul Of or Winds Of Dune?
Both, I believe.
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