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Old August 28 2013, 05:32 AM   #271
darth_ender
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Marc wrote: View Post
darth_ender wrote: View Post
Set Harth wrote: View Post
My preferred adaptation of the first Dune book would be the Lynch version....My optimal version would be something that doesn't exist. It would include the deleted scenes that were in the extended "Alan Smithee" edition, with their special effects completed, and with all the crap of that edition ( the voiceover, the scenes reused out of their proper sequence, etc. ) taken out.
I'm a huge fan of fanedits, and this probably won't be the first suggestion I make to check one out, but the following edit is nearly made to your order.

http://www.fanedit.org/ifdb/componen...-edition-redux

I still have a hard time with even this, as there is simply no way to remove that awful Baron Harkonnen. Nevertheless, this version appeals to many who enjoy the Lynch film, but felt it still left quite a bit to be desired.

For other edits of the film, you may want to check a couple of others on this list:

http://www.fanedit.org/ifdb/2012-08-...&keywords=dune
I've seen the Spicediver Alternative Version but it's been a while.

Have to admit that the thing I remember the most was the changed made with the soundtrack but there were extra scenes - the fate of Hawat at the end, the taking of Jamis's water are two I remember.
Truthfully I haven't seen the Alternative Redux, but it's supposed to be even better than the one it sounds like you've seen. It might suit your fancy
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Old August 28 2013, 09:11 AM   #272
lurok
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Marc wrote: View Post
Have to admit that the thing I remember the most was the changed made with the soundtrack but there were extra scenes - the fate of Hawat at the end, the taking of Jamis's water are two I remember.
Aldo wrote: View Post
In the longer cut do they include Paul telling the Emperor he intends to take Irulan as his wife? Without that little piece in the movie the character herself is pretty pointless, except for that small introduction at the beginning. I can't believe Virginia Madsen would sign on just for that.
If remember rightly, pretty sure both the Jamis water and Hawat death scenes are in the Third Stage cut. And I think there's also more of Irulan, Shaddam and the marriage issue in that version's extended final act.

Agree also that GoD is probably magnum opus. Never tire of reading. For years I thought a major issue in any attempt to visualise it would be that Leto II would sadly look like a humongous Jabba. Post-CG/motion capture, it would certainly be more realistically possible. McAvoy's troutskin in CoD was a nice foreshadowing.
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Old August 28 2013, 10:40 AM   #273
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Kynes says something about how the stillsuit is a "heat exchange system", so it must take care of body heat in SOME manner.
In-universe I think they actually used the reclaimed water as part of the cooling system. Something about the inner layer being a web of tiny tubes, which resulted in the drinking water being fairly warm. Still, you'd thing there must have been some kind of heatsink or radiator on the outside of the suit. I mean surely the heat must be dissipated somehow?

In reality they were just rubber suits and I imagine the actors lost body water by the pint.
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Old August 28 2013, 10:00 PM   #274
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

God Emperor of Dune has a LOT of haters and is a highly marmite book. It's possible you might not enjoy it at all, and agree with the general consensus that Herbert's original trilogy is the peak of his offerings.

You'd be wrong though .
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Old August 28 2013, 10:09 PM   #275
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I never understood parts of God Emperor of Dune until I joined a (now-defunct) Dune forum where there were people who could explain it to me.

The thing is, some parts of the book would make a wonderful adventure movie. The opening sequence is an excellent example of this... but it almost immediately degenerates into Leto pontificating on thoughts that only he and sycophant-worshipper Moneo find interesting. I found Siona to be a completely unlikeable character. She may have had the genes Leto wanted, but she was also pretty stupid. Jessica would have mopped the floor with her thisfast.
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Old August 29 2013, 02:46 AM   #276
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I've only ever read GEoD once and while I didn't hate it, I can't say as I *liked* it either. Mostly I think it has to do with some fairly weak characters. Siona had some promise but she's absent for a fair chunk of the book and ends up being little more than a bystander. Moneo had more depth than you might think, but he's just that interesting to read. Leto is downright insufferable a lot of the time, which would have been fine but there's no counterbalance. Not even Duncan makes up for it.

Can't really remember the rest of the line up. I know there's a Fishspeaker, a Bene Gesserit and that Ixian android (at least I think that's what she was) but I can't recall their names nor any unique characteristics.

The ending felt a bit odd too. Indeed the whole book left me with the impression that Herbert started out thinking the book would be about Siona, but decided he'd rather explore the nature of immortality with Leto, but didn't really have a strong plot to support it.
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Old August 29 2013, 02:58 AM   #277
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

The only problem I recall having with GEOD has to do with Siona. It's that after the climactic moment of Leto bringing her into his vision, it doesn't change anything about her motivations. She's like, "Yeah, I get it now, but he still has to die." Which, of course, serves his ultimate plan - but she doesn't know that.

Reverend wrote:
and that Ixian android (at least I think that's what she was)
I'm pretty sure she was supposed to be human and a clone of Malky.
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Old August 29 2013, 02:59 AM   #278
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Timewalker wrote: View Post
I never understood parts of God Emperor of Dune until I joined a (now-defunct) Dune forum where there were people who could explain it to me.

The thing is, some parts of the book would make a wonderful adventure movie. The opening sequence is an excellent example of this... but it almost immediately degenerates into Leto pontificating on thoughts that only he and sycophant-worshipper Moneo find interesting. I found Siona to be a completely unlikeable character. She may have had the genes Leto wanted, but she was also pretty stupid. Jessica would have mopped the floor with her thisfast.
To be honest.. i didn't understand it either when i first read the books as a teenager, 15 or 16 years old.

The first one is easy to understand on the surface.. young man gets stranded in a hostile environment, rises to the top of the natives through previous excellent training and the superstitions of the natives only to turn into a superbeing who reclaims his birthright and in wider terms total control of humanity. A cool adventure story on the surface.

But God Emperor really confused me for years.. i just couldn't make heads or tails of it and the following books only deepened my confusion after the time jump, the total switch of story focus and suddenly reappearing human enemies from far beyond, something not mentioned before so where the f.. did they come from?

I haven't read those books in years and this thread rekindled my interest to do so but back in the day it took the internet and some sites to really understand the story of God Emperor.

Personally i prefer it like that.. i can read easy stuff like Star Wars or Star Trek books all day because they are written like that to be accessible to everybody and i do take enjoyment out of them but its rare books like the Dune series that challenge you to dig deeper and discover the whole story. This is how books become classics.
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Old August 29 2013, 03:48 AM   #279
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Reverend wrote: View Post
I've only ever read GEoD once and while I didn't hate it, I can't say as I *liked* it either. Mostly I think it has to do with some fairly weak characters. Siona had some promise but she's absent for a fair chunk of the book and ends up being little more than a bystander. Moneo had more depth than you might think, but he's just that interesting to read. Leto is downright insufferable a lot of the time, which would have been fine but there's no counterbalance. Not even Duncan makes up for it.

Can't really remember the rest of the line up. I know there's a Fishspeaker, a Bene Gesserit and that Ixian android (at least I think that's what she was) but I can't recall their names nor any unique characteristics.

The ending felt a bit odd too. Indeed the whole book left me with the impression that Herbert started out thinking the book would be about Siona, but decided he'd rather explore the nature of immortality with Leto, but didn't really have a strong plot to support it.
I really loathe the character of Leto II. He was his own person only in the womb, and then Chani's spice overdose made him Pre-Born. At the age of NINE, he becomes a Pre-Born human-sandworm hybrid. He never actually had a real childhood, and any time he pontificates about adult things like love and sex, he's just borrowing from Other Memory. He never experienced any of it for himself.

The other main characters are Moneo Atreides (the major-domo/chief sycophant/Leto worshipper, his daughter Siona (who has a rebellious nature but doesn't actually have a clue what to do after Leto's death), Duncan Idaho the umpteen-umptieth (who is rather disgusted with how everything turned out after his original death), Nayla the Fish Speaker, Hwi Noree the Ixian clone (who was supposed to be Mrs. Leto II), and assorted Bene Gesserit petitioners and assorted Face Dancers (who are, of course, Up To No Good).

FPAlpha wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
I never understood parts of God Emperor of Dune until I joined a (now-defunct) Dune forum where there were people who could explain it to me.

The thing is, some parts of the book would make a wonderful adventure movie. The opening sequence is an excellent example of this... but it almost immediately degenerates into Leto pontificating on thoughts that only he and sycophant-worshipper Moneo find interesting. I found Siona to be a completely unlikeable character. She may have had the genes Leto wanted, but she was also pretty stupid. Jessica would have mopped the floor with her thisfast.
To be honest.. i didn't understand it either when i first read the books as a teenager, 15 or 16 years old.

The first one is easy to understand on the surface.. young man gets stranded in a hostile environment, rises to the top of the natives through previous excellent training and the superstitions of the natives only to turn into a superbeing who reclaims his birthright and in wider terms total control of humanity. A cool adventure story on the surface.

But God Emperor really confused me for years.. i just couldn't make heads or tails of it and the following books only deepened my confusion after the time jump, the total switch of story focus and suddenly reappearing human enemies from far beyond, something not mentioned before so where the f.. did they come from?
You mean the Honored Matres?

A very brief timeline of events goes something like this: After Leto II starts turning into a sandworm at the end of Children of Dune, the story fast-forwards 3500 years to God Emperor of Dune. That story takes several months to happen, then we fast-forward another 1500 years to Heretics of Dune. There's no huge gap of time between that and Chapterhouse, since they're basically the same continued story, just split over two books.

Inbetween God Emperor and Heretics, the Scattering has taken place - Leto is no longer around to forbid ordinary people from traveling to other planets or setting up their own kinds of government, and there's a lot of anarchy and people breaking free.

One thing KJA/BH did that I agree with is explain where the Honored Matres came from. Throughout the entire series, it's been a mystery as to where the female Tleilaxu are; nobody ever sees any. I figured that during the Scattering, a bunch of Bene Gesserit went rogue, teamed up with the female Tleilaxu (rescuing them from slavery as mere breeding machines from the Tleilaxu males), took off for parts unknown, and morphed into the Honored Matres. Much later, they encountered some kind of Enemy that scared them sh!tless - so they came running back to set up a power base and force the Bene Gesserit to give up whatever knowledge the HM thought they'd need to defeat the Enemy.

We never actually find out from Frank Herbert's books who the Enemy is, or what exactly is the terrible Weapon they have. He died before he could finish the final book that would have explained these.
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Old August 29 2013, 04:01 AM   #280
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

slight nitpick

It's Leto III, Leto II died in infancy during a battle with the Harkonnens.
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Old August 29 2013, 05:34 AM   #281
Timewalker
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Marc wrote: View Post
slight nitpick

It's Leto III, Leto II died in infancy during a battle with the Harkonnens.
Nope. It would only be Leto III if he were the son of Paul and Chani's firstborn (the one who was killed).

Since both of them were Paul's sons and both were named Leto, the surviving one gets the Roman numeral "II."
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Old August 29 2013, 05:59 AM   #282
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Timewalker wrote: View Post
At this point, I'm going to recommend Ed Naha's excellent book The Making of Dune. It's a fascinating behind-the-scenes look at what went into writing, casting, and filming the movie, with extensive comments by the actors, writers, producers, technicians and, of course, Frank Herbert himself.

There were so many parts of the novel that were actually filmed that never made it onscreen. Basically, as I recall, they never filmed the banquet scene... and that was it. They filmed everything else, but had to pick and choose what would fit into less than 3 hours.
I tried reading DUNE when I was 12 or 13 and gave up about 25 pages in during the hand in the box ibt. Then over a decade later, just a few months prior to the film coming out, I picked it up (same copy, I hadn't tossed it) and opened right up to the banquet scene, which drew me in completely. I read about 40 pages past it, THEN went back and was able to read it cover to cover in a couple days. Since then, when I can't get into a book, I open it at random and give it a chance to be the DUNE banquest scene.

I have owned several copies of the Naha book (shot of Kyle on the cover is always a favorite with past girlfriends and my wife, because it looks exactly like me - the neg is flipped so his hair is parted on the left, not the right), and while I agree it is very good, I would recommend the CINEFANTASTIQUE double issue that features DUNE even more strongly. Lots of great pics (though I guess most of them are on the DVD now) and an interesting set of bits about Apogee and Dykstra leaving the show.)
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Old August 29 2013, 09:18 AM   #283
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*



I never had a problem with GEoD's time-jump or narrative. Quite liked that meditative quality. I did it think was interesting that Heretics seemed more a return to the conventional adventure/action formula. Perhaps FH or publishers felt it didn't quite work? And HoD does feature one of my favourite Dune universe characters: Waff.
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Old August 29 2013, 12:46 PM   #284
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Timewalker wrote: View Post
You mean the Honored Matres?

A very brief timeline of events goes something like this: After Leto II starts turning into a sandworm at the end of Children of Dune, the story fast-forwards 3500 years to God Emperor of Dune. That story takes several months to happen, then we fast-forward another 1500 years to Heretics of Dune. There's no huge gap of time between that and Chapterhouse, since they're basically the same continued story, just split over two books.

Inbetween God Emperor and Heretics, the Scattering has taken place - Leto is no longer around to forbid ordinary people from traveling to other planets or setting up their own kinds of government, and there's a lot of anarchy and people breaking free.
Yeah.. i get it now after 20+ years later since i read the books initially

Thanks though for the effort.
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Old August 29 2013, 01:43 PM   #285
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Marc wrote: View Post
slight nitpick

It's Leto III, Leto II died in infancy during a battle with the Harkonnens.
Doesn't Heretics of Dune suggest that according to Fremen beliefs Leto III is a reincarnation of Leto II and thus why he's called Leto II?
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