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Old August 24 2013, 01:01 AM   #241
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I'd have to find my copy of God Emperor and refresh my memory. The easiest solution would be to use Duncan the (whatever number), as there's 1500 years between God Emperor and Heretics, and the Bene Gesserit took over the program for breeding ghola-Duncans.
I guess I just feel it fits Odrade's character more to have her recounting that part of the story. Using any of the Duncans will always be tricky as they're often at the centre of events and (at that point) his other memories weren't serial. I suppose an argument could be made for the last narrator to be that Duncan because he really did live (and die) through the whole thing.

That actually reminds me, back when I first read Chapterhouse one of my pet theories about the two face dancers at the end was that they'd unlocked ALL of other memory and were in essence, the personification of all of human history.

The risk you'd run with this approach is that people who haven't read the books are more likely to be confused by characters they can't immediately identify. I remember seeing the Lynch movie in the theatre back in 1984, and overheard a father telling his son, "Now pay attention. This is important." when Duncan Idaho's scenes came up and he was killed. Obviously, the father had read the books, and wanted to teach his son about Duncan's place in them.
Anyone crazy enough to adapt all those books shouldn't worry about confusing the audience. That's a given!
Seriously though, making the the identity of the narrator and their relation to the events part of the ongoing intrigue, can be a good way to draw an audience in if done right.

Of course done badly it can totally break the pacing an immersion and totally wreck the narrative. Like most things, it's all in the execution.

Plus daisy chaining them like that is a good way to maintain a continuity of storytelling, especially when decades or millennia can pass between movies. For example, if you start GEoD with someone from the post-scattering period talk about Leto II in relation to the time they're now in, it gives the audience a slightly gentler lead-in to the subsequent story before the current one has even began.

In short, it lends a larger sense of context and avoids the plodding, almost aimless "and then this happened" type of linear story telling.

Some of the lead actors in the Lynch movie had "play or pay" contracts for the next two books, so I honestly think that if the Lynch movie had made money, there would have been more movies.
I'm pretty sure I read some where they'd already stared work on Dune 2 & 3 when the film hit theatres. Not sure if that was just early drafts of the scripts or actual pre-production. Also not sure if "Dune 2 & 3" would have been Messiah & Children or if they would have chosen to roll those two together and make God Emperor the third film. I suspect the latter because honestly, knowing Lynch I think he would have been *dying* to get to the giant man-worm film.
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Old August 24 2013, 07:45 AM   #242
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I believe Lynch was in the process of writing the script for Dune Messiah when it became clear it wouldn't be needed.

I wish he had been given the chance to do it but won't complain too much since he was able to do the superb Blue Velvet instead.
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Old August 24 2013, 08:05 AM   #243
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I wonder how he'd have written Irulan... like the sympathetic character in the TV miniseries, or the ice bitch-conspirator that FH wrote her as?

His first version of Dune Messiah had her being killed off by Fremen fanatics at the end; I'm glad he changed his mind. Otherwise, we'd never have seen Julie Cox's fantastic interpretation of the character.
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Old August 24 2013, 10:06 AM   #244
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I never got the same "ice bitch" impression from Irulan that you did. For me Cox's interpretation of the character was reasonably faithful. Sure, if you just look at her actions it seems cold, but then you could say the same about a lot of what Leto I did and he's generally considered to be a (literally) noble and charismatic leader.

The tragedy of Irulan is that she's caught between forces beyond her control and put in an impossible position. On the one hand there's her loyalty to her father and her Bene Gesserit training while on the other she's married to a man whom she genuinely loves deep down but who only has her for her name and only tolerates her presence out of pity.

In this whole thing she had one choice of her own to make and she instantly regretted it and spent the rest of her life in service to Paul's children.
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Old August 24 2013, 12:02 PM   #245
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Timewalker wrote: View Post
I wonder how he'd have written Irulan... like the sympathetic character in the TV miniseries, or the ice bitch-conspirator that FH wrote her as?

His first version of Dune Messiah had her being killed off by Fremen fanatics at the end; I'm glad he changed his mind. Otherwise, we'd never have seen Julie Cox's fantastic interpretation of the character.
The hand-dialogue scene between Cox and Krige in CoD is one of my favourites and one of the first that I thought really visually/dramatically captured what Herbert had written about BG ways in his books.

The Madsen Irulan opening narration - the way it's shot and edited and use of music - is one of my favourite bits of movie intro exposition. But I know many disagree .
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Old August 24 2013, 02:08 PM   #246
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Irulan's treatment in the books kind of felt strange if you think about it. I mean, Paul was the one who forced the marriage yet he's the one that resents her and acts like it's HER fault. So she's left totally alone, loves a guy who holds her in utter disdain, doesn't even bother taking a lover of her own, etc. Yet the text treats her like she's the bad guy.
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Old August 24 2013, 10:11 PM   #247
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

lurok wrote: View Post
The Madsen Irulan opening narration - the way it's shot and edited and use of music - is one of my favourite bits of movie intro exposition. But I know many disagree .
I thought it a bit tiresome with her constantly fading out and then back in again to say "Oh, and one other thing..."
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Old August 24 2013, 11:01 PM   #248
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

^If you found the film tiresome at that point, how ever did you make it all the way through the rest of the film!?
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Old August 24 2013, 11:15 PM   #249
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

That was a very memorable scene imo. It definitely stuck to my mind after watching the movie.
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Old August 25 2013, 02:00 AM   #250
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Reverend wrote: View Post
^If you found the film tiresome at that point, how ever did you make it all the way through the rest of the film!?
Obviously, I'm not really a big fan of the Lynch movie.
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Old August 25 2013, 02:56 AM   #251
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

At this point, I'm going to recommend Ed Naha's excellent book The Making of Dune. It's a fascinating behind-the-scenes look at what went into writing, casting, and filming the movie, with extensive comments by the actors, writers, producers, technicians and, of course, Frank Herbert himself.

There were so many parts of the novel that were actually filmed that never made it onscreen. Basically, as I recall, they never filmed the banquet scene... and that was it. They filmed everything else, but had to pick and choose what would fit into less than 3 hours.
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Old August 25 2013, 02:58 AM   #252
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

That's too bad, the banquet was one of my favorite parts of the book.
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Old August 25 2013, 03:23 AM   #253
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Herbert himself said he got why they cut things, he said something about how "It'd be a 14 hour butt killer" otherwise.
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Old August 25 2013, 05:51 AM   #254
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Timewalker wrote: View Post
At this point, I'm going to recommend Ed Naha's excellent book The Making of Dune. It's a fascinating behind-the-scenes look at what went into writing, casting, and filming the movie, with extensive comments by the actors, writers, producers, technicians and, of course, Frank Herbert himself.

There were so many parts of the novel that were actually filmed that never made it onscreen. Basically, as I recall, they never filmed the banquet scene... and that was it. They filmed everything else, but had to pick and choose what would fit into less than 3 hours.
I wonder how much more is really out there? The Third Stage fanedit adds in the extended edition scenes (minus prologue and the added bits Lynch himself didn't shoot) and the deleted scenes that were included in the special features. That runs just under three hours.

I do know that Lynch typically shoots a ton of footage that is never used. Wild at heart, Blue Velvet, and the Twin peaks film all have something like 45-60 minutes of deleted scenes each.

I need to pick up a used copy of that book sometime. I've heard good things about it.
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Old August 25 2013, 06:06 AM   #255
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Aldo wrote: View Post
That's too bad, the banquet was one of my favorite parts of the book.
Most of the movie was shot in Mexico, and they literally had to build a whole new studio down there first. The book recounts how many of the actors and techs suffered from gastrointestinal problems, so I'm not surprised they didn't shoot the banquet scene.

Kirkman1987 wrote:
I need to pick up a used copy of that book sometime. I've heard good things about it.
I know it's available on Amazon.ca, so it's probably also available on the American Amazon site.
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