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Old August 22 2013, 10:04 PM   #211
kirk55555
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
I thought it was pretty evident that the Butlerian Jihad was man against man, and a matter of conflicting philosophies. A consequence of it was the destruction of thinking machines, but that's no more a war against machines than World War II was a war against buildings.

You'd think Herbert's own son would have understood what his father meant!
I always thought it was man against machine. Thats the whole point of not making a machine like a man's mind, which is brought up in Frank Herbert's books.

Besides that, Brian herbert did write atleast some of the books based off Frank Herbert's notes that they found after his death, so I'm just going to assume that Frank Herbert meant it to have been a human vs. Machine war. That said, I wouldn't care if they came out tomorrow and said they were lying about having any notes whatsoever. I like so many of the BH/KA books that it just wouldn't be the series I enjoy at this point without them.
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Old August 22 2013, 10:07 PM   #212
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Asbo Zaprudder wrote: View Post
We reach! Oops, wrong Herbert.

Pinkie and the Brian's oeuvre appears to apply Stalinist revisionism to Frank Herbert's intentions but they have access to his notes and we don't so *shrug*. Shallow doesn't cut it -- their stuff has no depth.
They might claim to have access to his notes but
a) we don't know what's in those notes
b) how comprehensive they are
c) if they are actually following them.
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Old August 22 2013, 10:11 PM   #213
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I tend to think the whole "based on Frank Herbert's notes" thing is an exaggeration. I don't doubt Frank left behind some notes about Dune's backstory and where he intended to take the series. But I doubt he left enough material to fuel over ten novels. Although, while it certainly wasn't very popular among fans, I am convinced Duncan Idaho's eventual fate in Sandworms of Dune is something Frank Herbert intended to do with the character. I'd say the books are mostly Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson's own writings. It'd say the ratio is something like 98% BH and KJA and 2% derived from something found in FH's notes.
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Old August 22 2013, 10:21 PM   #214
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Marc wrote: View Post
Asbo Zaprudder wrote: View Post
We reach! Oops, wrong Herbert.

Pinkie and the Brian's oeuvre appears to apply Stalinist revisionism to Frank Herbert's intentions but they have access to his notes and we don't so *shrug*. Shallow doesn't cut it -- their stuff has no depth.
They might claim to have access to his notes but
a) we don't know what's in those notes
b) how comprehensive they are
c) if they are actually following them.
Of course they're not following them. If they were, there wouldn't have been the nonsense of Marty and Daniel really being robots. And the characters on the no-ship wouldn't have been so damn STUPID for two entire books! (would FH have had Duncan stare at a strand of Murbella's hair for an insane number of pages and contemplate having her brought back as a ghola so he could have his lover back - considering that it would have taken over 15 years at least for her to grow to maturity to have sex with him? Duncan was never perfect, but I'm pretty damn sure that he was never a pedophile!)

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
I tend to think the whole "based on Frank Herbert's notes" thing is an exaggeration. I don't doubt Frank left behind some notes about Dune's backstory and where he intended to take the series. But I doubt he left enough material to fuel over ten novels. Although, while it certainly wasn't very popular among fans, I am convinced Duncan Idaho's eventual fate in Sandworms of Dune is something Frank Herbert intended to do with the character. I'd say the books are mostly Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson's own writings. It'd say the ratio is something like 98% BH and KJA and 2% derived from something found in FH's notes.
Robert Wise did it better at the end of Star Trek: The Motion Picture.
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Old August 23 2013, 12:12 AM   #215
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Marc wrote: View Post
Asbo Zaprudder wrote: View Post
We reach! Oops, wrong Herbert.

Pinkie and the Brian's oeuvre appears to apply Stalinist revisionism to Frank Herbert's intentions but they have access to his notes and we don't so *shrug*. Shallow doesn't cut it -- their stuff has no depth.
They might claim to have access to his notes but
a) we don't know what's in those notes
b) how comprehensive they are
c) if they are actually following them.
Apparently according to his son, he left very little in regards to how Dune 7 was going to end. We know Marty and Daniel being the thinking machines was a complete invention of KJA and BH since Omnius and Erasmus were both original characters of theirs.

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
I thought it was pretty evident that the Butlerian Jihad was man against man, and a matter of conflicting philosophies. A consequence of it was the destruction of thinking machines, but that's no more a war against machines than World War II was a war against buildings.
I have always thought it was a war against those people who use advanced AI to control others. I think Leto spelled it out in GEoD that it was not just a war against machines, but a war against a mindset that relied on them.

Last edited by Hound of UIster; August 23 2013 at 01:29 AM.
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Old August 23 2013, 12:29 AM   #216
Tom Hendricks
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Kirkman1987 wrote: View Post
I'm more of a yellowed paperback kind of guy, but I came across this edition today and my dollars and I soon parted.





Looks like I have the excuse I need to read this again.
Beautiful edition of Dune. I own several different editions of it myself, when ever I see a new version I always buy it.
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Old August 23 2013, 12:51 AM   #217
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I think I lost mine in the great fire of 2000.

Now I want that one.

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You now run the risk of Kevin J. Anderson seeing this and adding you to his list of the people he openly calls "Talifans"
By Guldur, that's not even original. That's a favorite phrase of former SW EU author Karen Traviss.
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Old August 23 2013, 01:28 AM   #218
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

He did this before Traviss actually back when usenet was still a thing.
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Old August 23 2013, 03:33 AM   #219
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

If anyone does want that edition of Dune it's a recent Barnes and Noble exclusive. It should be in store and is also on the website.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/dune...=9781435140745

I started reading shortly after getting home this afternoon. It's a lot easier to read the second time having remembered most of the terminology.
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Old August 23 2013, 07:28 AM   #220
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Asbo Zaprudder wrote:
Pinkie and the Brian's oeuvre appears to apply Stalinist revisionism to Frank Herbert's intentions but they have access to his notes and we don't so *shrug*. Shallow doesn't cut it -- their stuff has no depth.
You have no idea how far they've gone to discredit the original six novels. They made it clear in Paul of Dune that Dune - FRANK HERBERT'S NOVEL - is nothing more than an in-universe propaganda novel authored by Princess Irulan, on Paul's orders. There's a scene where the Fremen warriors going on jihad are given copies of the book, and they wonder how Irulan was so stupid and "got everything wrong."
Holy crap! I'm so glad that I gave up after the Legends of Dune trilogy, which was bad enough.
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Old August 23 2013, 03:55 PM   #221
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Timewalker wrote:
Marty and Daniel are FACE DANCERS. They are NOT robots, or any kind of "thinking machine". That was perfectly clear in FH's book.
Seriously? Now I feel even better about avoiding those books like the plague.
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Old August 23 2013, 05:09 PM   #222
Timewalker
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Asbo Zaprudder wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Asbo Zaprudder wrote:
Pinkie and the Brian's oeuvre appears to apply Stalinist revisionism to Frank Herbert's intentions but they have access to his notes and we don't so *shrug*. Shallow doesn't cut it -- their stuff has no depth.
You have no idea how far they've gone to discredit the original six novels. They made it clear in Paul of Dune that Dune - FRANK HERBERT'S NOVEL - is nothing more than an in-universe propaganda novel authored by Princess Irulan, on Paul's orders. There's a scene where the Fremen warriors going on jihad are given copies of the book, and they wonder how Irulan was so stupid and "got everything wrong."
Holy crap! I'm so glad that I gave up after the Legends of Dune trilogy, which was bad enough.
Yep. The nuDune version is that Paul wanted to really play up the religion stuff, so he had Irulan spin a tale about him doing and learning everything we saw in Dune, except it really wasn't true. FFS, KJA/BH have Paul literally run off-planet and join the circus (the Jongleurs), when he was 12 (I think; it's been awhile since I read that book). Of course we Orthodox Herbertarians pointed out that it says very specifically in Dune that Paul's first off-world trip was to Arrakis, at the age of 15. They just dismissed it and said Irulan had written a propaganda tract at Paul's orders, and THEIR version of the events before, during, and after Dune was the "correct" one.

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote:
Marty and Daniel are FACE DANCERS. They are NOT robots, or any kind of "thinking machine". That was perfectly clear in FH's book.
Seriously? Now I feel even better about avoiding those books like the plague.
They committed one of the cardinal sins of writing science fiction: they assume their audience is stupid, and either didn't understand FH's books or would just shrug it off and accept the new version. After all, we do live in an age where George Lucas continually re-butchered his own Star Wars universe and the audience still watched the movies and bought the books, right?

They miscalculated with the group of us who pushed back. George Lucas could do any damn thing he wanted with SW; he owned it and was still alive to make those decisions. But Frank Herbert is not alive, and I think he would be appalled to see what's been done to his legacy.
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Old August 23 2013, 05:13 PM   #223
Robert Maxwell
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Asbo Zaprudder wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post

You have no idea how far they've gone to discredit the original six novels. They made it clear in Paul of Dune that Dune - FRANK HERBERT'S NOVEL - is nothing more than an in-universe propaganda novel authored by Princess Irulan, on Paul's orders. There's a scene where the Fremen warriors going on jihad are given copies of the book, and they wonder how Irulan was so stupid and "got everything wrong."
Holy crap! I'm so glad that I gave up after the Legends of Dune trilogy, which was bad enough.
Yep. The nuDune version is that Paul wanted to really play up the religion stuff, so he had Irulan spin a tale about him doing and learning everything we saw in Dune, except it really wasn't true. FFS, KJA/BH have Paul literally run off-planet and join the circus (the Jongleurs), when he was 12 (I think; it's been awhile since I read that book). Of course we Orthodox Herbertarians pointed out that it says very specifically in Dune that Paul's first off-world trip was to Arrakis, at the age of 15. They just dismissed it and said Irulan had written a propaganda tract at Paul's orders, and THEIR version of the events before, during, and after Dune was the "correct" one.
What the..? You mean they actually retconned Dune itself to be a propaganda piece produced by Irulan at Paul's behest? Some might consider that clever and meta, but undermining the central narrative of Dune in such a profound way hardly seems worth just having that kind of "cool twist."
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Old August 23 2013, 05:15 PM   #224
Set Harth
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Timewalker wrote:
After all, we do live in an age where George Lucas continually re-butchered his own Star Wars universe and the audience still watched the movies and bought the books, right?
Well, yeah.

But Lucas' "butchering" was pretty tame, all things considered. Arguably a better analogy to the Pinky and the Brain situation would be the butchering committed by some of the SW books themselves, something that KJA was involved in, not coincidentally ( though he was far from the worst offender ).
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Old August 23 2013, 05:21 PM   #225
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

To be fair, J.R.R. Tolkien himself completely retconned the Riddles in the Dark chapter from The Hobbit, changing it almost entirely in later editions. In The Lord of the Rings, the original chapter is retconned in to being a lie Bilbo told people about how he acquired the ring. A total George Lucas move, that very few people I meet seem to know about.

Definitely a piece of trivia that gets the ladies interested.
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