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Old August 22 2013, 02:39 PM   #196
DalekJim
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Brian Herbert has shown zero respect for the integrity of his father's body of work. He has published stories that not only contradict the original series, but will have diluted the franchise by outnumbering the original novels. He has pissed on his father's legacy, and is worthy of artistic contempt.

My two pence .
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Old August 22 2013, 02:48 PM   #197
Set Harth
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

As a former reader of Star Wars novels, I knew to stay away as soon as I heard Kevin Anderson was involved. Once bitten and all that...
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Old August 22 2013, 03:21 PM   #198
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

i know the 'story' is that some notes were discovered and a floppy disk in a safe deposit box was found to contain Frank Herbert's outlines...but i've always wondered if any of these notes were about retconning existing books or going crazy with thinking machines.
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Old August 22 2013, 04:07 PM   #199
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

All I ever heard about was that Herbert had notes for a follow-up to Chapterhouse, which he intended to conclude the series. In essence, he viewed the story as two trilogies with a "bridge" book (God Emperor) in between. That makes sense enough to me.

I'm content to pretend the other books don't exist or amount to fan fiction. Herbert's unique approach to the material is an essential part of what makes it Dune, for me. Lacking that, it's just not the same.
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Old August 22 2013, 04:40 PM   #200
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
If you find yourself interested in reading the entire Dune series, than the trilogy is kind of required since it sets up really important backstory for the Hunters of Dune/Sandworms of Dune conclusion novels.
Au contraire: Chapterhouse is the last in the series. It ends seemingly in media res, with the last survivors heading off into the unknown, the universe full of possibilities. A perfect ending, really.
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Old August 22 2013, 04:50 PM   #201
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Timewalker wrote: View Post
The Butlerian Jihad was never a war involving Man against Machine (in the form of robots, androids, meks, etc.). The Butlerian Jihad was Some Men Who Consider Thinking Machines Good vs Other Men Who Consider Thinking Machines Evil.
Wait, so the Dune Universe ended up the way it did because The Butlerian Jihad was basically the war where luddites took over the universe?
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Old August 22 2013, 05:43 PM   #202
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I don't know if it's canon or not, but the extended Prologue to the Lynch Dune movie semi-explained the Butlerian Jihad (it didn't call it that) as being a war between men and men who were using Thinking Machines to dominate others.

It was man vs man, with the thinking Machines being the weapons of war used by the "bad" side. The Machines weren't in an of themselves evil, just being used for it.
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Old August 22 2013, 07:00 PM   #203
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Apologies if this has already been mentioned (haven't read the entire thread), but KJA/BH didn't have the first clue what the Butlerian Jihad was about. A bunch of us "Orthodox Herbertarians" (readers who consider the Frank Herbert novels and the Dune Encyclopedia as authentic Dune - the Encyclopedia because it was sanctioned by Frank Herbert - and the nuDune books as bad fanfic that somehow got professionally published) used to argue this a lot on the old Dunenovels forum.
Except the Dune Encyclopedia has been de-canonised courtesy of a couple of authors who don't their novels contradicted.
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Old August 22 2013, 07:25 PM   #204
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Wasn't the whole bit about Old Earth being glassed to end the war an invention of the prequel novels too? I'm pretty sure there's mention of Old Earth still being a place where humans live in the appendices.

Whichever way you cut it, Brian & Kevin didn't do their homework.
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Old August 22 2013, 07:32 PM   #205
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Timewalker wrote: View Post
A bunch of us "Orthodox Herbertarians" (readers who consider the Frank Herbert novels and the Dune Encyclopedia as authentic Dune - the Encyclopedia because it was sanctioned by Frank Herbert - and the nuDune books as bad fanfic that somehow got professionally published) used to argue this a lot on the old Dunenovels forum.
I just changed my Facebook religious status from Atheist to Orthodox Herbertairan after reading this.
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Old August 22 2013, 08:06 PM   #206
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

We reach! Oops, wrong Herbert.

Pinkie and the Brian's oeuvre appears to apply Stalinist revisionism to Frank Herbert's intentions but they have access to his notes and we don't so *shrug*. Shallow doesn't cut it -- their stuff has no depth.
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Old August 22 2013, 09:18 PM   #207
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I'm more of a yellowed paperback kind of guy, but I came across this edition today and my dollars and I soon parted.





Looks like I have the excuse I need to read this again.
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Old August 22 2013, 09:26 PM   #208
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Aldo wrote: View Post
I hate to slip into spoilery territory here because I may still read the trilogy...but really!? A war against machines?

You're right, nowhere in the references to the Butlerian Jihad in Frank's books does it ever sound like it could be a war against machines. Hmm, that is weird.
They basically turned nuDune into a transporter-accident mess combining Dune, Star Wars, and the Terminator. Add cannibalism, zero understanding of how relativity works when you have neither FTL technology nor spacefolding, a psychotic robot, cybermeks who took on the names of ancient deities, and Norma Cenva (a deus-ex-machina character who saves the day EVERY DAMN BOOK after she becomes immortal and god-like)... as I first said years ago, on the Dunenovels forum, it's a tragic waste of trees.

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
I thought it was pretty evident that the Butlerian Jihad was man against man, and a matter of conflicting philosophies. A consequence of it was the destruction of thinking machines, but that's no more a war against machines than World War II was a war against buildings.

You'd think Herbert's own son would have understood what his father meant!
I think BH has a greater understanding than KJA. BH's biography of Frank Herbert (Dreamer of Dune) was excellent.

DalekJim wrote: View Post
Brian Herbert has shown zero respect for the integrity of his father's body of work. He has published stories that not only contradict the original series, but will have diluted the franchise by outnumbering the original novels. He has pissed on his father's legacy, and is worthy of artistic contempt.

My two pence .
As I said above, I think that the occasional good parts of nuDune came from BH. KJA wanted to cash in on churning out more Dune books, but he wanted BH's name attached to it, to lend credibility. Other members of FH's family are also involved in promoting these books. FH's grandson, Byron Merritt, ran the Dunenovels forum, and was also a member at my old Arrakeen forum for awhile.

Praetor_Shinzon wrote: View Post
i know the 'story' is that some notes were discovered and a floppy disk in a safe deposit box was found to contain Frank Herbert's outlines...but i've always wondered if any of these notes were about retconning existing books or going crazy with thinking machines.
Personally, I believe one of two things: either the notes never existed (hard to believe, since doesn't every author keep notes? I do, and all I write is fanfic and poetry), or they existed and KJA/BH took what they wanted and ignored the rest. The latter is the most likely explanation, and also the most likely explanation for why the notes have never been published.

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
If you find yourself interested in reading the entire Dune series, than the trilogy is kind of required since it sets up really important backstory for the Hunters of Dune/Sandworms of Dune conclusion novels.
It's a feedback loop. The nuDune crap is completely unnecessary, because the Hunters/Sandworms books are not really sequels to Chapterhouse as much as sequels to KJA/BH's version of Dune.

Marty and Daniel are FACE DANCERS. They are NOT robots, or any kind of "thinking machine". That was perfectly clear in FH's book.

InklingStar wrote: View Post
Au contraire: Chapterhouse is the last in the series. It ends seemingly in media res, with the last survivors heading off into the unknown, the universe full of possibilities. A perfect ending, really.
I have to agree with this. A lot of people have lamented the cliff-hanger ending, but such endings can work very well. Margaret Atwood did this in her Handmaid Tale novel (the movie provided a different ending, so the audience wouldn't feel cheated out of some kind of "closure"). Even if Frank Herbert had actually intended Chapterhouse to be the final Dune novel, it would have worked.

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
The Butlerian Jihad was never a war involving Man against Machine (in the form of robots, androids, meks, etc.). The Butlerian Jihad was Some Men Who Consider Thinking Machines Good vs Other Men Who Consider Thinking Machines Evil.
Wait, so the Dune Universe ended up the way it did because The Butlerian Jihad was basically the war where luddites took over the universe?
I am taking this information from the Dune Encyclopedia, p. 137 in the trade paperback edition that was published in 1984.


The Butlerian Jihad happened because far in the past (in-story), an AI doctor made the decision to abort a healthy fetus. The child's mother was Jehanne Butler. This act was possible because the hospital director that allowed the decision to abort was a self-programming machine. Jehanne was a priestess and also Bene Gesserit, so she knew perfectly well that her daughter was healthy.

The article is several pages long, so suffice to say that the Bene Gesserit and others were not happy that a machine was allowed to program itself to commit such criminal acts. They decided to take it to their rulers, on the planet Richese.

Richese, they discovered, was being run to an appalling extent by thinking machines, originally programmed by humans who wanted to use the machines to control the emotional and intellectual development and behavior of their populace.

Finally a rebellion started. Jehane didn't start it, but her name was leant to it - because it was her baby that was aborted. It was a war of ideologies that took a long time - over a century - and ended with the dictum "Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." That was a profound change in thinking in the Imperium, as profound as the Ten Commandments are to us, even those of us who don't follow that religion or are atheists (ie. the prohibition against killing).

Marc wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Apologies if this has already been mentioned (haven't read the entire thread), but KJA/BH didn't have the first clue what the Butlerian Jihad was about. A bunch of us "Orthodox Herbertarians" (readers who consider the Frank Herbert novels and the Dune Encyclopedia as authentic Dune - the Encyclopedia because it was sanctioned by Frank Herbert - and the nuDune books as bad fanfic that somehow got professionally published) used to argue this a lot on the old Dunenovels forum.
Except the Dune Encyclopedia has been de-canonised courtesy of a couple of authors who don't their novels contradicted.
Considering that they stole some of their ideas directly from the Encyclopedia, they're trying to have it both ways. The Encyclopedia has long been out of print, and the estate holders are in no hurry to allow it back into print - too many readers would notice. I happen to have a copy of the Encyclopedia - a book that was sanctioned by Frank Herbert - so I don't give a damn what KJA/BH say.

Reverend wrote:
Wasn't the whole bit about Old Earth being glassed to end the war an invention of the prequel novels too? I'm pretty sure there's mention of Old Earth still being a place where humans live in the appendices.

Whichever way you cut it, Brian & Kevin didn't do their homework.
You are correct. If Earth had been glassed as shown in the nuDune books, there wouldn't have been anywhere available to iron out the Orange Catholic Bible. That series of discussions happened in Hawaii (the clues to this location are in Dune, and in the appendices).

Tom Hendricks wrote:
Timewalker wrote:
A bunch of us "Orthodox Herbertarians" (readers who consider the Frank Herbert novels and the Dune Encyclopedia as authentic Dune - the Encyclopedia because it was sanctioned by Frank Herbert - and the nuDune books as bad fanfic that somehow got professionally published) used to argue this a lot on the old Dunenovels forum.
I just changed my Facebook religious status from Atheist to Orthodox Herbertairan after reading this.
Welcome aboard! You now run the risk of Kevin J. Anderson seeing this and adding you to his list of the people he openly calls "Talifans" - those of us who don't like nuDune and aren't shy about saying so.

Asbo Zaprudder wrote:
Pinkie and the Brian's oeuvre appears to apply Stalinist revisionism to Frank Herbert's intentions but they have access to his notes and we don't so *shrug*. Shallow doesn't cut it -- their stuff has no depth.
You have no idea how far they've gone to discredit the original six novels. They made it clear in Paul of Dune that Dune - FRANK HERBERT'S NOVEL - is nothing more than an in-universe propaganda novel authored by Princess Irulan, on Paul's orders. There's a scene where the Fremen warriors going on jihad are given copies of the book, and they wonder how Irulan was so stupid and "got everything wrong."

This inspired me to make this lol over at I Can Has Cheezburger?:




@Kirkman1987: Those are BEAUTIFUL!!! (and now I am so jealous... )
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Old August 22 2013, 09:33 PM   #209
The Wormhole
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Aldo wrote: View Post
I hate to slip into spoilery territory here because I may still read the trilogy...but really!? A war against machines?

You're right, nowhere in the references to the Butlerian Jihad in Frank's books does it ever sound like it could be a war against machines. Hmm, that is weird.
Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
I thought it was pretty evident that the Butlerian Jihad was man against man, and a matter of conflicting philosophies. A consequence of it was the destruction of thinking machines, but that's no more a war against machines than World War II was a war against buildings.

You'd think Herbert's own son would have understood what his father meant!
Although, doesn't the "Alan Smithee" version of the Lynch movie depict the Jihad as a war against machines? Or at the very least state that the Jihad freed humanity from the oppression of the thinking machines, which kind of implies machines were fought against.
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Old August 22 2013, 09:43 PM   #210
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Yes, in the prologue the visuals make that pretty clear. check out roughly the 1-3 minute mark.

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