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Old August 21 2013, 01:41 AM   #181
Hound of UIster
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Reverend wrote: View Post
Marc wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post
The way Lynch portrayed the foldspace sequence certainly leaves one with the impression that the navigator is doing all the legwork (so to speak--no fetus pun intended) but I think it's ambiguous to interpret it as merely the Navigator's spice trance-induced perception of what will/is happening.

Oddly enough, IMO the same sequence in the Sci-fi mini manages to make it look even more like the navigator is doing the space folding itself. The really interesting thing for me is that this scene isn't in the book at all and yet both adaptations choose to depict it in a very similar way.

As for how Dune could have been discovered before the use of spice; leaving aside the thinking machine aspect, it might be worth remembering just how far in the future this world is. I forget the exact date, but IIRC the appendix says the Butlarian Jihad occurs sometime around 12-13,000 A.D.
Over ten millennia is plenty of time for humanity to spread out--at relativistic speed--the two or three hundred light years to Alpha Carinae.
Could be even longer. Dune is set in 10,191 A.G with the letters denoting After Guild. That is 10,191 after the formation of the Spacing Guilding and we don't know when it was founded.
Read my post again. I wasn't talking about when the book takes place.

Also, we do know roughly how much time passed between "now" and the formation of the Guild



So that puts the formation of the Guild around 11,000 years after we start travelling into deep space, which (assuming that counts unmanned probes) is around 13,000 A.D. So incidentally, if Dune starts in 10,191 A.G., that puts it at around the early 24th millennium on the Gregorian calender.
Hound of UIster wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post
As for how Dune could have been discovered before the use of spice; leaving aside the thinking machine aspect, it might be worth remembering just how far in the future this world is. I forget the exact date, but IIRC the appendix says the Butlarian Jihad occurs sometime around 12-13,000 A.D.
Leto's other memories showed Arrakis before it had become colonized by the sandtrout and sandworms so the arrival of humans there preceded Arrakis eventually becoming a desert world under the influence of the sandtrout.
Were those other memories from his human ancestry, or from the sandtrout themselves? I'd always assumed it was the latter. It does raise an interesting question though: are the sandworms the only non-Earth derived lifeforms known in the Dune universe (I can't think of any others), or were they somehow created and put there by humans?
Those memories were from his human ancestry. And were the worms really even alien? I always thought they were organisms from Earth who had diverged evolutionary after being introduced into the novel conditions on a new planet.

Last edited by Hound of UIster; August 21 2013 at 02:13 AM.
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Old August 21 2013, 02:03 AM   #182
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Aldo wrote: View Post
Fair enough. I'm just curious of the opinions of people who have read them

As I said up thread, The Butlerian Jihad is an event that interests me, so when I saw a whole book that covers it, I was a little intrigued.
I read the Legends of Dune trilogy (The Butlerian jihad, The Machine Crusade and The Battle of Corrin, the first is called "the Butlerian Jihad" but the entire trilogy covers it) years ago. The Butlerian Jihad (the event not the novel) was much better when I didn't know the details, it was this conflict that changed the Dune universe and most of it was a mystery. When I read the novels this great mystery turned into just another war and not even an interesting one, I knew how it would end from the start, which is a problem of many prequels.

It had a few good characters, Xavier Harkonnen was awesome, I remember really liking him and Abulurd, one of his grandsons. Their fates, especially Abulurd's actually made me dislike a certain other house.
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Old August 21 2013, 02:14 AM   #183
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Just remember those novels are just pricey fanfiction.
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Old August 21 2013, 02:18 AM   #184
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Takeru wrote: View Post
Aldo wrote: View Post
Fair enough. I'm just curious of the opinions of people who have read them

As I said up thread, The Butlerian Jihad is an event that interests me, so when I saw a whole book that covers it, I was a little intrigued.
I read the Legends of Dune trilogy (The Butlerian jihad, The Machine Crusade and The Battle of Corrin, the first is called "the Butlerian Jihad" but the entire trilogy covers it) years ago. The Butlerian Jihad (the event not the novel) was much better when I didn't know the details, it was this conflict that changed the Dune universe and most of it was a mystery. When I read the novels this great mystery turned into just another war and not even an interesting one, I knew how it would end from the start, which is a problem of many prequels.

It had a few good characters, Xavier Harkonnen was awesome, I remember really liking him and Abulurd, one of his grandsons. Their fates, especially Abulurd's actually made me dislike a certain other house.
Would that be an event referenced in Dune it's self in the wake of the Battle Of Corrino?
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Old August 21 2013, 09:27 AM   #185
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Marc wrote: View Post
Would that be an event referenced in Dune it's self in the wake of the Battle Of Corrino?
Uhh, it's been a long time, so I'm not sure the event I'm talking aboout is referenced in Dune proper,

I was talking about
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Old August 21 2013, 02:09 PM   #186
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Aldo wrote: View Post
I know Brian Herbert and that other guy aren't too popular around here. But I was at the bookstore today and saw 'The Butlerian Jihad.' That's a subject that always interests me when it's brought up in the text of 'Dune' and now 'Dune Messiah.'

Granted I'm still a long ways off from even thinking about reading prequel novels (as I'm still only halfway through 'Messiah'. I'm curious if the "Legends of Dune" trilogy is worth seeking out?
IMO, the Legends of Dune trilogy (The Butlerian Jihad, The Machine Crusade, and The Battle of Corrin) are probably the low points of the series, and I say that as someone who actually enjoys most of the novels by Brian Herbert and Kevin J Anderson.

Although The Butlerian Jihad itself is actually a pretty decent novel, and very enjoyable. The other two are so meh they bring the entire trilogy down.

If you find yourself interested in reading the entire Dune series, than the trilogy is kind of required since it sets up really important backstory for the Hunters of Dune/Sandworms of Dune conclusion novels.
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Old August 21 2013, 02:40 PM   #187
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Takeru wrote: View Post
Marc wrote: View Post
Would that be an event referenced in Dune it's self in the wake of the Battle Of Corrino?
Uhh, it's been a long time, so I'm not sure the event I'm talking aboout is referenced in Dune proper,

I was talking about
yep that's the incident. It's mentioned in the original novel as one of the reasons for the way things are.
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Old August 21 2013, 03:00 PM   #188
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

It's reinterpreted as the final battle of the Butlerian Jihad there instead of what people previously assume as the Battle that cements the Corrino Empire.
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Old August 21 2013, 04:01 PM   #189
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I love a good Dune thread.

God Emperor remains my favorite book in the series.

I'll always appreciate that the series tackled big questions and topics not often explored in science fiction (and rarely to such depth.) It wasn't enough to simply have prescience as en element--it had to be deconstructed and its implications fully explored. Invisibility to prescience being the key to humanity's long-term survival is definitely one of the most unusual themes I've ever encountered in fiction.
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Old August 22 2013, 01:35 AM   #190
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I just finished 'Dune Messiah.'

I really enjoyed the book, and at the same time the ending fills me with a sense of sadness, not just for Paul, but for the fact that he put himself on his path that would eventually be his undoing.

I can't wait to get started on 'Children of Dune.' Initially I had planned to take a break from the Dune saga and read 'Catching Fire,' but 'Dune Messiah' was such a great experience I'm jumping right into 'Children of Dune.'
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Old August 22 2013, 01:46 AM   #191
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

You're in for a treat. Children of Dune is a powerful, moving book and a worthy sequel to the first novel. It's the finale of the original trilogy, and most people will tell you that the ones after aren't worth it.

They're wrong though, and God Emperor is the best sequel.
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Old August 22 2013, 02:07 AM   #192
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Takeru wrote: View Post

It had a few good characters, Xavier Harkonnen was awesome, I remember really liking him and Abulurd, one of his grandsons. Their fates, especially Abulurd's actually made me dislike a certain other house.
My favorite character from the trilogy was Norma. I started glossing over stuff near the end just to get to her parts.
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Old August 22 2013, 08:05 AM   #193
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I have a ton of stuff I want to say, but will start after I finish rewatching the Children of Dune miniseries (it's on YouTube).

Apologies if this has already been mentioned (haven't read the entire thread), but KJA/BH didn't have the first clue what the Butlerian Jihad was about. A bunch of us "Orthodox Herbertarians" (readers who consider the Frank Herbert novels and the Dune Encyclopedia as authentic Dune - the Encyclopedia because it was sanctioned by Frank Herbert - and the nuDune books as bad fanfic that somehow got professionally published) used to argue this a lot on the old Dunenovels forum.

The Butlerian Jihad was never a war involving Man against Machine (in the form of robots, androids, meks, etc.). The Butlerian Jihad was Some Men Who Consider Thinking Machines Good vs Other Men Who Consider Thinking Machines Evil.

It was a war of opposing ideologies, and we all know from real-world history that those kinds of wars can last millennia longer than wars for other, more tangible reasons. Any careful reading of Dune will make this clear.
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Old August 22 2013, 10:44 AM   #194
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I hate to slip into spoilery territory here because I may still read the trilogy...but really!? A war against machines?

You're right, nowhere in the references to the Butlerian Jihad in Frank's books does it ever sound like it could be a war against machines. Hmm, that is weird.
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Old August 22 2013, 02:30 PM   #195
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I thought it was pretty evident that the Butlerian Jihad was man against man, and a matter of conflicting philosophies. A consequence of it was the destruction of thinking machines, but that's no more a war against machines than World War II was a war against buildings.

You'd think Herbert's own son would have understood what his father meant!
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