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Old August 17 2013, 10:18 AM   #151
Reverend
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

A House "wants" whatever the head of house says it wants. So if they could do away with the Baron, they would have Feyd in as head of House in one hand and a Bene Gesserit trained Atredies daughter in the other...do I really need to draw a diagram? It's well established where Feyd's interests lie and what a fully trained Bene Gesserit is capable of between the sheets. Either way, the end result would be an heir to both houses who would only be a heartbeat or two away from his inheritance and a Reverend Mother holding his leash.

The trick would just be getting Feyd in the same room with her and letting his guard down.
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Old August 17 2013, 11:56 AM   #152
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
It was the Baron who wanted Duke Leto out of the way, due to the rivalry between their two Houses..
Shaddam IV was the real mastermind behind the plot against the Atreides. The Baron was just a smoke-screen for him.

Plans within plans...
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Old August 17 2013, 02:20 PM   #153
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Thought this would be of some interest to those here. This is from the Omni reboot website.

FRANK HERBERT CALLED HIM THE ONLY ARTIST TO HAVE VISITED DUNE. DECADES AFTER THEIR PUBLICATION IN OMNI, JOHN SCHOENHERR’S ILLUSTRATIONS ARE AS MELANCHOLY AND POWERFUL AS EVER.


If there’s anywhere the old axiom about judging a book by its cover holds true, it’s science fiction. Few authors and the artists employed to visualize their stories achieve a real dialogue; more often than not, throughout the history of science fiction, literature of real depth is sold with flashy aliens and cosmic exaggerations. An extraordinary illustrator, however, is capable of contributing to a piece of literature just as meaningfully as its author. In the case of an artist like John Schoenherr, he becomes the work’s joint architect–and leaves a mark no less indelible.

http://omnireboot.com/archives/dune/
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Old August 17 2013, 02:52 PM   #154
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Anwar wrote: View Post
The whole thing about making the Atreides and Harkonnens wed their offspring never made much sense to me. What would compel either family to do so? They didn't WANT peace between their Houses and would've been fine doing anything they could to kill one another if the Laws didn't forbid them from doing so. No amount of "Voice" would've been enough to get Leto to give his daughter (assuming Jessica made Paul a girl instead) to Feyd-Rautha.
It wasn't the houses that wanted a wedding or off spring. It was the bene Gesserit for their breeding program.

And it could have been done if certain origins where hidden and that had been shown.
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Old August 17 2013, 06:56 PM   #155
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I can see them knocking off the Baron and Leto to put their children in charge, but are women allowed to take over Rulership of their Houses?
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Old August 17 2013, 06:59 PM   #156
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Anwar wrote: View Post
I can see them knocking off the Baron and Leto to put their children in charge, but are women allowed to take over Rulership of their Houses?
Nothing says they can't.

Plus Shaddam had to put a Bene Gessirit trained daughter on the throne after he died so if she could rule the known universe she could also rule House Corrino.
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Old August 18 2013, 05:20 AM   #157
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I started reading 'Dune Messiah' yesterday, and boy is it a quick read, I'm nearly halfway through it.

I'm enjoying the conspiracy storyline and am really interested in where it is heading (no spoilers please). But what I love the most about this story, is that just like in the original novel, someone is setting a trap and yet it's sussed out pretty quickly. I really enjoy that because the suspense comes, not from watching the hero helplessly flail about as someone plots against him, but to see if he can overcome the conspirators himself.

At the rate I'm going, I imagine I'll be wrapping this one up by Monday or Tuesday.
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Old August 18 2013, 05:27 AM   #158
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Aldo wrote: View Post
I started reading 'Dune Messiah' yesterday, and boy is it a quick read, I'm nearly halfway through it.

I'm enjoying the conspiracy storyline and am really interested in where it is heading (no spoilers please). But what I love the most about this story, is that just like in the original novel, someone is setting a trap and yet it's sussed out pretty quickly. I really enjoy that because the suspense comes, not from watching the hero helplessly flail about as someone plots against him, but to see if he can overcome the conspirators himself.

At the rate I'm going, I imagine I'll be wrapping this one up by Monday or Tuesday.
"The first step in avoiding a trap is knowing it is there"
- Thufir Hawat - Mentat & Master of Assasains
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Old August 18 2013, 01:13 PM   #159
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

The Duncan stuff is the best part of the book.
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Old August 19 2013, 12:40 AM   #160
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Seeing the way that Paul can see the trap but absolutely cannot avoid it is fascinating. All his prescience and he still cannot help being manipulated. Seeing the future is a curse, not the blessing he thought it was.
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Old August 19 2013, 01:34 AM   #161
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I'm probably in the minority, but while I very much like the original DUNE novel, the only sequel novel that engaged me was GOD EMPEROR, which left me emotionally drained. I remember reading books five & six as well, but the only detail in memory is the chairdogs.

I think the Lynch movie was a very good try, and he delivers the mentats and the sisterhood pretty well, but in the main you've got all these great actors performing around a black hole. They needed somebody charismatic or who could become charismatic to play Paul, and McLachlan, who shows none of his TP talent here (or in BLUE VELVET for that matter) is an utter failure.

As much as I dislike Tom Cruise, he'd at least have captivated some of the audience ... same for Keanu Reeve, though he'd've had to be dubbed. Timothy Hutton might have been the best possible choice, but was probably a couple years too old to bring it off.

The miniseries of DUNE was a real mess in my opinion. Visual style aside, they screwed up the Emperor's daughter and they still left out that guy who was the almost-qwizatz, a very compelling character and the one thing that I also really miss seeing in the Lynch. I think their Chani was pretty good, but I actually gave up on it after about 5 hours.
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Old August 19 2013, 01:39 AM   #162
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

If you gave up after 5 hours, then you gave up after most of it.
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Old August 19 2013, 01:43 AM   #163
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

That's my point. I hung in there and hung in there and actually switched off while ships were flying and blowing stuff up, which SHOULD have kept me looking.
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Old August 19 2013, 02:55 AM   #164
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

Redfern wrote: View Post
Forgive the slight shift of topic, gang, but I have an "in story" techno-babble (or would that be a spice-babble?) question.

Like several of us in this discussion, I read the novels before seeing the Lynch adaptation. Actually, I felt motivated to read the original novel when I learned the film project was finally underway. (There were several false starts including one that would have involved H.R. Giger providing the major designs...and we did get a few paintings from that failed attempt.) I was 21 or 22 at that time. I can't remember whether I read the next two in the series before or after I saw the movie. Hey, I'm 50 now and I've always been a tad absent minded, anyway. I'll be lucky to remember my own name by the time I hit 60.

Sorry, going on a tangent within my own post. Back to the point.

David Lynch gives viewers the impression that melange gave the Guild Nagivators the literal ability to "fold space" (as the phrase goes). In effect, they are biological "jump drives" or "warp engines". And it's the melange discovered on Arrakis that gave them this ability. Well, that's the impression he gave me.

But I inferred a very different concept from the books. The Spice doesn't give the Navigators the ability to teleport themselves and a portion of their surroundings (namely, the Guild highliners and their contents). Rather, it just gives them the ability to far enough into the near future to know where they need to be. They relay this information to "armies" of Second and First Stage Navigators who interpret this information into mathmatical formula, numbers that allow them to manually "tune" hardware akin to particle colliders. When finally activated, these colliders or engines creates a space-time distortion that teleports the highliner from star system A to star system B in the wink of an eye. Before the Butleran Jihad, the "tuning" (read: programming) of the engines was done by computers. Afterwards, when computers were outlawed, huge numbers of humans "hopped up" on Spice solved the equations and adjusted settings upon "dumb" hardware. When fully "tuned", somebody would "throw the switch" and the ferry would vanish from orbit around Corrino (or wherever) and reappear high over Arrakis.

But some with whom I've communicated feel the Navigators invoked the granddaddy of mentally assisted teleportations. If so, how did they do it before Arrakis was discovered and the infamous Spice?

Sincerely,

Bill
I love your explanation.
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Old August 19 2013, 04:44 AM   #165
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Re: Dune - The Book and the 1984 film *spoilers for both*

I like that explanation too. I never bought into the idea that the Guild Navigators were folding space with the use of spice.
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