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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old August 9 2013, 12:29 PM   #31
Captaindemotion
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
Morpheus 02 wrote: View Post
Here's a thought....is it possible that a regeneration goes horribly wrong and splits the Doctor in two? So that McGann's dr. turned into Eccleston's, but ALSO Hurt's? So that's why he was a cast off (along with what he did)?
Yes, I think that could work. A sort of non-identical twin situation but arising from a regeneration, rather than human birth. Though if that's what they do, it'll make the absence of McGann and Eccleston even more glaring.
And you think it won't be already?
Why do you think I said 'even more' glaring?
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Old August 9 2013, 02:06 PM   #32
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
Captaindemotion wrote: View Post

Yes, I think that could work. A sort of non-identical twin situation but arising from a regeneration, rather than human birth. Though if that's what they do, it'll make the absence of McGann and Eccleston even more glaring.
And you think it won't be already?
Why do you think I said 'even more' glaring?
Ah, right. Sorry, Captain!
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"I am... most pleased to see again, Captain" Spock formally replied.
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Old August 9 2013, 02:18 PM   #33
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

^ No problem Emperor!
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Old August 10 2013, 04:37 AM   #34
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

captain crow wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
So, what's the Biological issue?
If I remember right in in the original series they never gave a reason why. They just stated that they couldn't regenerate more than 12 times. At a guess I would figure it's because their body's cells can only handle being rebuilt 12 times.



Sindatur wrote: View Post
Maybe that's why Moffat decided to create an extra Doctor, maybe, because he wants to address the 12 Regeneration rule, and be the one who gives the Doctor new lives before Moffat moves on to his next job?
Yup. He wants to be the one to extend or undo the regen limit.


Everyone always forgets about poor old Richard Hurndall. Not to mention Michael Jayston and Toby Jones.

Candlelight wrote: View Post
It's the fact that Capaldi is the 12th actor to play the role - this is officially designated by Moffat and co during the press release - and yet John Hurt is apparently a 13th actor. So he'll probably get swallowed up by a crack in time or the Doctor is reset/gifted another regeneration - but still doesn't hide the fact that - if John Hurt really is "the Doctor" between 8 and 9 - Capaldi should be 'officially' the 13th, because biologically speaking he has to be.
Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
I agree with everything Candlelight has said. The Doctor in his Ninth and Tenth form has been pretty open about he did, and never gave an inclination that he had something to hide in terms of what he did do, which was to end the Time War by wiping out all Daleks and Time Lords. More importantly, WE know this, as an audience, so that doesn't really leave much in the way of mystery.

And even more importantly, I'm not sure the Doctor in his 11th incarnation hid it away, either - Emily seemed to know pretty well of what had happened to the Time Lords, and he frequently mentioned he was the last of his species.

So, really, if the shock twist of the Doctor in his Hurt form has to do with the actual termination of the Time War... Russel T. Davies beat him to it.
Going by the dialog at the end of "The Name of the Doctor" Moffat is setting up that the Doctor has no problem admitting what he did. He's just so ashamed by the incarnation that did it that he disavows his exsistance.

Basically, it's cheap and easy way to add another incarnation and keep the current Doctor numbering order the same by having selves 10-12 (possibly 13 as well) strip the 9th of the Doctor title.
Bingo.

He's The Doctor in the same way that Bruce Wayne would still be Batman if he gunned down a family in an alley. Which is to say, not at all.

The Doctor is a selected name, an identity. A promise to the universe, and to himself. Like Batman.
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Old August 16 2013, 03:14 PM   #35
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

IDW's Doctor Who #12 may shed some light on John Hurt's Doctor.

Bleeding Cool reprints the two relevant pages, set on Gallifrey on the last day of the Time War. Here's the important dialogue:

The Keeper of the Matrix: If the Doctor has indeed seized the moment--

Lady Priyan: He has rejected that name. The renegade stands against us.
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Old August 16 2013, 05:52 PM   #36
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

So, the Ninth basically had nothing to do with the Time War, then?
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"Spock...?" Kirk said, whispering.
"I am... most pleased to see again, Captain" Spock formally replied.
McCoy shook his head in disgust. "Oh, for crying out loud, Spock. Its been eighty years!"
"Seventy eight point four years, Doctor."

The Holy Three meet again, in The Return
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Old August 16 2013, 06:24 PM   #37
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
So, the Ninth basically had nothing to do with the Time War, then?
He did. Eccleston's Doctor, the tenth, didn't.

Oh, my head...
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Old August 16 2013, 06:34 PM   #38
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

StCoop wrote: View Post
Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
So, the Ninth basically had nothing to do with the Time War, then?
He did. Eccleston's Doctor, the tenth, didn't.

Oh, my head...
LOL!

I know the feeling... So, to rephrase: The ECCLESTON-DOCTOR had nothing to do with the Time War, then?
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"Spock...?" Kirk said, whispering.
"I am... most pleased to see again, Captain" Spock formally replied.
McCoy shook his head in disgust. "Oh, for crying out loud, Spock. Its been eighty years!"
"Seventy eight point four years, Doctor."

The Holy Three meet again, in The Return
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Old August 16 2013, 07:19 PM   #39
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

Maybe at the last momments of the time war Hurt regenerated into Ecleston and Eccleston decided to do the right thing and end it.
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Old August 16 2013, 07:42 PM   #40
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

Green Lantern wrote: View Post
Maybe at the last momments of the time war Hurt regenerated into Ecleston and Eccleston decided to do the right thing and end it.
Thats how I actually thought they're gonna do it. Perhaps even have stock footage of Eccleston to have him as the Doctor end it all.
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"Spock...?" Kirk said, whispering.
"I am... most pleased to see again, Captain" Spock formally replied.
McCoy shook his head in disgust. "Oh, for crying out loud, Spock. Its been eighty years!"
"Seventy eight point four years, Doctor."

The Holy Three meet again, in The Return
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Old August 16 2013, 10:36 PM   #41
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

Hopefully.
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Old August 17 2013, 04:58 PM   #42
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
So, the Ninth basically had nothing to do with the Time War, then?
The issue as a whole, not just those two pages that Bleeding Cool printed, is more ambiguous on that point. For one thing, Lady Priyan could just as easily have been referring to Grandfather Paradox; Andy Diggle takes an idea from The Gallifrey Chronicles and runs with it in an unexpected direction. For another thing, it's not clear if the Doctor himself rejected the name during those days ("The End of Time, Part Two" suggests that he didn't) or if the Time Lords (or only some of them) considered him unworthy of the name. In any event, the Doctor seems proud in this issue of what he did with the Moment, which feeds back into the idea that whatever the Doctor did that was un-Doctor-ish, it probably was not the use of the Moment and the destruction of Gallifrey.

In short, for the TL,DR crowd, what I'm saying is that for those who hold the idea that Eccleston's Doctor was the Time War Doctor, this issue doesn't rule out that hypothesis.

Green Lantern wrote: View Post
Maybe at the last moments of the Time War Hurt regenerated into Eccleston and Eccleston decided to do the right thing and end it.
So, the end of the Time War was really due to post-regenerative confusion? Instead of strangling Peri half to death like his sixth incarnation, Eccleston's Doctor destroyed his homeworld? Sounds good to me.

Seriously, though, if Hurt's Doctor was the Time War Doctor, then whatever it was that made him anathema to the eleventh Doctor in "The Name of the Doctor" was in Hurt's past because Hurt, with his one line of dialogue, refers to it in the past tense which may suggest, perhaps even strongly, that Hurt lives beyond the end of the Time War.

Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
Thats how I actually thought they're gonna do it. Perhaps even have stock footage of Eccleston to have him as the Doctor end it all.
Given John Hurt's tweets about Peter Capaldi and the rumors about series 8, I don't really expect that we'll see a regeneration from Hurt to Eccleston. And that's without going into the problems of stock footage resolution (since series 1 was shot in SD and not HD) and whether or not there would be contractual royalties due to Eccleston if it were done.
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Old August 17 2013, 08:21 PM   #43
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

Probably still cheaper to use stock footage of Eccleston than to pay him to actually be there and shoot him.

Which really wouldn't shock me - I mean hell the Name of the Doctor used stock footage of all but 8, 9 and 10 - even colorized a 1st Doctor - which I think was pretty cool actually. Although I'm sure some smarty pants will go 'they showed all 11' yeah but the ass of 9, the bottom of 10's trenchcoat and trainers, the possibly back part of 8, don't really 'count' - those were probably Moffat and Smith themselves running around Clara. LOL

BBC I'm sure owns the rights to what they shot and can use it however they wish if it furthers a story.
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Old August 17 2013, 10:05 PM   #44
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
For another thing, it's not clear if the Doctor himself rejected the name during those days ("The End of Time, Part Two" suggests that he didn't) or if the Time Lords (or only some of them) considered him unworthy of the name.
Judging by the way Smith's Doctor acted towards Hurt's at the end of "The Name of the Doctor" it was the Doctor himself who rejected 9.
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Old August 17 2013, 10:54 PM   #45
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post

In short, for the TL,DR crowd, what I'm saying is that for those who hold the idea that Eccleston's Doctor was the Time War Doctor, this issue doesn't rule out that hypothesis.
There's really no reason to think that there isn't more than one Time War Doctor, is there? Something could have happened to the Doctor that caused him to regenerate in the middle of the Time War. Hell, maybe a couple times? I've never seen the TV movie; do we know the fate of the 8th Doctor? Could he have been in the Time War as well?

Hell, maybe Hurt's Doctor started the Time War.
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