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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old August 8 2013, 09:20 PM   #16
beneldon
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

Maybe he had the Time Lords and the Daleks come to a peace table but knowing they would never reach an agreement, the Hurt Doctor is responsible for all those nasty things Ten spoke of coming out of the time lock; "Not just the Daleks, but the Skaro Degradations, the Horde of Travesties, the Nightmare Child, the Could-Have-Been-King with his army of Meanwhiles and Never-weres"
Sort of "if you don't come to an greement these things will happen and then you, Doctor Eight (or Nine), will have no choice but to use the "moment!"
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Old August 8 2013, 10:33 PM   #17
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

Noddy wrote: View Post
What theories are there on precisely why the incarnation of the Doctor played by John Hurt is disavowed and has had his very existence hidden by subsequent Doctors? He says that he had no choice in what he did, that he did it "in the name of peace and sanity", to which Eleven responds "But not in the name of the Doctor." Judging from what I've heard about the trailer shown at Comic-Con, it seems to be shaping up that the Hurt Doctor fought in the Time War, and it's been speculated that the reason he's been forgotten is his genocide of the Time Lords. But I don't think that can be it, as the Doctor has never denied what he did in the new series. I think it could be because of some other atrocity he committed in the Time War, when he was fighting on the side of Gallifrey. What do the rest of us think?
I'm more interested in how Moffat handles the biology of the situation he's just created.

- The Doctor can regenerate 12 times and that's it, meaning 13 Doctors in total.
- Smith is definitely the 11th Doctor and Capaldi will definitely be the 12th.
- If 'Hurtnell' really is a biological incarnation of the Doctor then everyone HAS to move down a number (Eccleston is 10, Tennant is 11, etc).

Unless there's really something we're missing, everything we've been told since 'Rose' is slightly off.

My main issue with both Eccleston and Tennant were acceptant of what they did in the Time War; Nine was keen to remind the Dalek survivor in 'Dalek' that "he made it happen", and wasn't bothered by dumping it all on some hidden incarnation. It's really only been since Smith and his virtual lack of mentioning the Time War at all that it's become an issue.
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Old August 8 2013, 10:54 PM   #18
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

So, what's the Biological issue?

Wether Capaldi is the 13th incarnation, or the one after Capaldi becomes the 13th incarnation, they won't end the show as long as ratings aren't in the toilet.

So, either after Capaldi, or after the next one, they'll either ignore the 12 Regeneration rule, or they'll address it and give him new lives.

Maybe that's why Moffat decided to create an extra Doctor, maybe, because he wants to address the 12 Regeneration rule, and be the one who gives the Doctor new lives before Moffat moves on to his next job?
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Old August 9 2013, 12:07 AM   #19
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

Sindatur wrote: View Post
So, what's the Biological issue?

Wether Capaldi is the 13th incarnation, or the one after Capaldi becomes the 13th incarnation, they won't end the show as long as ratings aren't in the toilet.

So, either after Capaldi, or after the next one, they'll either ignore the 12 Regeneration rule, or they'll address it and give him new lives.

Maybe that's why Moffat decided to create an extra Doctor, maybe, because he wants to address the 12 Regeneration rule, and be the one who gives the Doctor new lives before Moffat moves on to his next job?
It's not the fact that Capaldi is or isn't the last Doctor; I'm sure they'll write some technobabble to give him another 12 regenerations or something.

It's the fact that Capaldi is the 12th actor to play the role - this is officially designated by Moffat and co during the press release - and yet John Hurt is apparently a 13th actor. So he'll probably get swallowed up by a crack in time or the Doctor is reset/gifted another regeneration - but still doesn't hide the fact that - if John Hurt really is "the Doctor" between 8 and 9 - Capaldi should be 'officially' the 13th, because biologically speaking he has to be.
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Old August 9 2013, 12:19 AM   #20
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

I agree with everything Candlelight has said. The Doctor in his Ninth and Tenth form has been pretty open about he did, and never gave an inclination that he had something to hide in terms of what he did do, which was to end the Time War by wiping out all Daleks and Time Lords. More importantly, WE know this, as an audience, so that doesn't really leave much in the way of mystery.

And even more importantly, I'm not sure the Doctor in his 11th incarnation hid it away, either - Emily seemed to know pretty well of what had happened to the Time Lords, and he frequently mentioned he was the last of his species.

So, really, if the shock twist of the Doctor in his Hurt form has to do with the actual termination of the Time War... Russel T. Davies beat him to it.
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Old August 9 2013, 12:33 AM   #21
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

#10 transferred regeneration energy into his previously severed hand and begat Roseten; Perhaps something may have happened to #8 that splits his regen into #9 and Hurt. Of course, how to do you tell this story without the #8 and #9 actors being in the show...
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Old August 9 2013, 12:34 AM   #22
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

The thing that HurtDoctor did that makes all the other "Doctors" ashamed is that he left a door open so that Dalek upon Dalek upon Dalek can escape.
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Old August 9 2013, 12:39 AM   #23
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

So, by that logic, should the Doctors be ashamed of the Fourth incarnation for not destroying the entire Dalek race in Genesis of the Daleks?
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Old August 9 2013, 01:18 AM   #24
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

Sindatur wrote: View Post
So, what's the Biological issue?
If I remember right in in the original series they never gave a reason why. They just stated that they couldn't regenerate more than 12 times. At a guess I would figure it's because their body's cells can only handle being rebuilt 12 times.



Sindatur wrote: View Post
Maybe that's why Moffat decided to create an extra Doctor, maybe, because he wants to address the 12 Regeneration rule, and be the one who gives the Doctor new lives before Moffat moves on to his next job?
Yup. He wants to be the one to extend or undo the regen limit.


Candlelight wrote: View Post
It's the fact that Capaldi is the 12th actor to play the role - this is officially designated by Moffat and co during the press release - and yet John Hurt is apparently a 13th actor.
Everyone always forgets about poor old Richard Hurndall. Not to mention Michael Jayston and Toby Jones.

Candlelight wrote: View Post
It's the fact that Capaldi is the 12th actor to play the role - this is officially designated by Moffat and co during the press release - and yet John Hurt is apparently a 13th actor. So he'll probably get swallowed up by a crack in time or the Doctor is reset/gifted another regeneration - but still doesn't hide the fact that - if John Hurt really is "the Doctor" between 8 and 9 - Capaldi should be 'officially' the 13th, because biologically speaking he has to be.
Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
I agree with everything Candlelight has said. The Doctor in his Ninth and Tenth form has been pretty open about he did, and never gave an inclination that he had something to hide in terms of what he did do, which was to end the Time War by wiping out all Daleks and Time Lords. More importantly, WE know this, as an audience, so that doesn't really leave much in the way of mystery.

And even more importantly, I'm not sure the Doctor in his 11th incarnation hid it away, either - Emily seemed to know pretty well of what had happened to the Time Lords, and he frequently mentioned he was the last of his species.

So, really, if the shock twist of the Doctor in his Hurt form has to do with the actual termination of the Time War... Russel T. Davies beat him to it.
Going by the dialog at the end of "The Name of the Doctor" Moffat is setting up that the Doctor has no problem admitting what he did. He's just so ashamed by the incarnation that did it that he disavows his exsistance.

Basically, it's cheap and easy way to add another incarnation and keep the current Doctor numbering order the same by having selves 10-12 (possibly 13 as well) strip the 9th of the Doctor title.
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Old August 9 2013, 08:51 AM   #25
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

9,10 and 11 might be upfront and open about what they did, but war is a messy business and, so far as we can asscertain, the Time War waged for a while. A man might spend years fighting in a war, and do terrible things that still stay on one side of the moral fence, yet in one battle, one skirmish, cross the line horrendously--that's what I imagine is the case in this instance.

As for the biology of the situation, hasn't RTD already somewhat messed things up by creating 10.5?

Actually are we sure Hurt isn't an 8.5 who was somehow reamalgamated when the Doctor regenrated into nine?
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Old August 9 2013, 09:18 AM   #26
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

I think he has to be a Doctor in his own right, since he doesn't look like any of the other Doctors. I'm one of the 'new Doctor is actually the 13th' camp but I think Bob may be right in saying that Moffat created a mess and now has to find a way out of it.

Also 'there can only be 12 regenerations' is never going to stick so there's no point in getting upset about it trampling over True Fans' feelings.
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Old August 9 2013, 09:32 AM   #27
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

Here's a thought....is it possible that a regeneration goes horribly wrong and splits the Doctor in two? So that McGann's dr. turned into Eccleston's, but ALSO Hurt's? So that's why he was a cast off (along with what he did)?
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Old August 9 2013, 11:35 AM   #28
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

Morpheus 02 wrote: View Post
Here's a thought....is it possible that a regeneration goes horribly wrong and splits the Doctor in two? So that McGann's dr. turned into Eccleston's, but ALSO Hurt's? So that's why he was a cast off (along with what he did)?
Yes, I think that could work. A sort of non-identical twin situation but arising from a regeneration, rather than human birth. Though if that's what they do, it'll make the absence of McGann and Eccleston even more glaring.
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Old August 9 2013, 12:18 PM   #29
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

Captaindemotion wrote: View Post
Morpheus 02 wrote: View Post
Here's a thought....is it possible that a regeneration goes horribly wrong and splits the Doctor in two? So that McGann's dr. turned into Eccleston's, but ALSO Hurt's? So that's why he was a cast off (along with what he did)?
Yes, I think that could work. A sort of non-identical twin situation but arising from a regeneration, rather than human birth. Though if that's what they do, it'll make the absence of McGann and Eccleston even more glaring.
And you think it won't be already?
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Old August 9 2013, 12:21 PM   #30
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Re: Why the John Hurt Doctor is not considered to "really be" the Doct

That is a cheat, and a bad one.
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