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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old August 18 2013, 12:19 PM   #151
austen_pierce
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Re: What you DON'T want to see in Star Trek 3

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Praetor wrote: View Post
To me, the point of having Khan in the cryotube was a throwback to how Khan came back in "Wrath of Khan" after "Space Seed." It should remain nothing more than a nod. The only reason to bring Khan back is if they're going to make him something other than an antagonist.

There was a moment in "Into Darkness" where I honestly thought in this universe Khan might end up not being an enemy.
Thing is, I still don't see Khan as the enemy in STID. Marcus, sure, but I feel sorry for Khan. They made him a bad ass, but they didn't sell the war criminal, genocidal madman side of the character. Sure, he's a superior asshole, but his people are being held hostage and loaded into torpedoes, he was blackmailed into help Marcus, used to attempt to start an interstellar war, Starfleet (from his POV) issued orders to kill him and his people when he didn't. He's got a right to be pissed off at Starfleet, I was cheering for him for a good portion of the movie.
Completely agree. Using Khan as an unexpected good guy would have been interesting. Not knowing where this was going did keep me more engaged in the film than I otherwise would have been.
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Old August 18 2013, 04:08 PM   #152
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: What you DON'T want to see in Star Trek 3

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
I feel sorry for Khan. They made him a bad ass, but they didn't sell the war criminal, genocidal madman side of the character.
Perhaps not, but that side was still there. Just because Khan was being forced to work for Section 31 does not make him a good guy. His very nature prevents him ever being that. Put all of the rest of the Augments into cryotubes and Khan is still as evil as he was before that. Nothing Khan ever did in STID justified his prior crimes or erased the memory of them.

It would be like a convicted serial killer, on death row, providing information to the police. That doesn't magically cause that person's crimes to vanish. It doesn't make them good. Some people are just evil for evil's sake, and always will be. Khan clearly held no remorse for any of his crimes on Earth (indeed, he fully admitted he would RESUME his work if given the opportunity), so why call him good?

As far as I'm concerned, Khan DESERVED everything he got. He deserved to be a tool of Section 31. Remember the Eugenics Wars - Khan and the rest of his ilk tried to take over Earth and exterminate anyone who wasn't a genetically engineered perfect being. I find it a fitting punishment that he is forced to work for the very people he tried to destroy - and would still try to, if he could.
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Old August 18 2013, 08:47 PM   #153
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Re: What you DON'T want to see in Star Trek 3

In TOS, from word one we knew Khan was a killer, a crazy mofo. Yeah, they give lip service to the Eugenics War and what he did and would do, but up to that point they played him as a sympathetic foe. If you knew nothing about Khan, they failed to sell him as the ultimate foe of the Enterprise crew and the reveal of his identity is just out of left field and doesn't feel like it works in context of the movie. He's not a good guy, but he never felt like the enemy either.
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Old August 19 2013, 01:50 PM   #154
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Re: What you DON'T want to see in Star Trek 3

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He's not a good guy, but he never felt like the enemy either.
Exactly, he seemed perfectly reasonable until he went apeshit and tried to kill everyone. Individuals like that are by far the most dangerous opponents of all as you don't see it coming.

A Klingon will always be dangerous but everyone knows that they are, its the ones you don't see coming that you have to worry the most about.

Of course that is easy to say in hindsight, but Marcus made the mistake knowing full well what Khan was and he paid for it with his life.
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Old August 19 2013, 07:50 PM   #155
Konata Izumi
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Re: What you DON'T want to see in Star Trek 3

Strong hate without showing it leading to something bad. Was the climatic punching bag scene followed up in any way?
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Old August 19 2013, 09:21 PM   #156
CorporalClegg
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Re: What you DON'T want to see in Star Trek 3

Gonzo wrote: View Post
A Klingon will always be dangerous
That's racist!
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Old August 19 2013, 11:13 PM   #157
Clancy_s
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Re: What you DON'T want to see in Star Trek 3

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Gonzo wrote: View Post
A Klingon will always be dangerous
That's racist!
Speciesist maybe but not racist as I understand it
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Old August 20 2013, 12:56 AM   #158
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Re: What you DON'T want to see in Star Trek 3

Gonzo wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
He's not a good guy, but he never felt like the enemy either.
Exactly, he seemed perfectly reasonable until he went apeshit and tried to kill everyone. Individuals like that are by far the most dangerous opponents of all as you don't see it coming.

A Klingon will always be dangerous but everyone knows that they are, its the ones you don't see coming that you have to worry the most about.

Of course that is easy to say in hindsight, but Marcus made the mistake knowing full well what Khan was and he paid for it with his life.
Which is one of the biggest reasons I don't want Khan back in III. He's story is done, Marcus is dead, and he's back with his people--even if it is in suspended animation. Bringing him back, would cheapen his character.
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Old August 20 2013, 01:37 AM   #159
austen_pierce
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Re: What you DON'T want to see in Star Trek 3

Gonzo wrote: View Post
A Klingon will always be dangerous

Worf would disagree.
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Old August 20 2013, 02:38 AM   #160
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Re: What you DON'T want to see in Star Trek 3

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
Gonzo wrote: View Post
A Klingon will always be dangerous
That's racist!
No, it's true.

Go ahead, try and tell me that Worf isn't dangerous...
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Old August 20 2013, 12:27 PM   #161
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: What you DON'T want to see in Star Trek 3

Worf feared Spot. The end.
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Old August 20 2013, 03:21 PM   #162
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: What you DON'T want to see in Star Trek 3

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Worf feared Spot. The end.
All feared Spot.
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Old August 20 2013, 07:05 PM   #163
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Re: What you DON'T want to see in Star Trek 3

Spot is not to be trifled with. Spot will mess you up.

And then turn into an iguana and mess you up some more.
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Old August 20 2013, 08:42 PM   #164
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Re: What you DON'T want to see in Star Trek 3

Spot is a personification of the long standing feligyny in Star Trek, which culminated with the mutilation of Caitians in Into Darkness.
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Old August 21 2013, 01:10 AM   #165
Hober Mallow
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Re: What you DON'T want to see in Star Trek 3

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
He's story is done, Marcus is dead, and he's back with his people--even if it is in suspended animation. Bringing him back, would cheapen his character.
They left him alive. He'll be back.
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