RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,607
Posts: 5,425,500
Members: 24,807
Currently online: 649
Newest member: Dixonn

TrekToday headlines

IDW Publishing December Trek Comics
By: T'Bonz on Sep 17

September Loot Crate Features Trek Surprise
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

USS Enterprise Miniature Out For Refit
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek/Planet of the Apes Comic Crossover
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Trek 3 Shooting Next Spring?
By: T'Bonz on Sep 16

Star Trek: Alien Domain Game Announced
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Red Shirt Diaries Episode Three
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Made Out Of Mudd Photonovel
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Takei Has Growth Removed
By: T'Bonz on Sep 15

Retro Review: Tears of the Prophets
By: Michelle on Sep 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Tech

Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old September 14 2013, 02:44 PM   #256
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

I did a quick comparison of the power conduit paths from the main reactor to the nacelles to see how 3 of Crazie Eddie's hypothesis holds up. None hold up under examination but the 3rd does suggest that sufficient cargo space - the one common thing among the ship classes that survive into TNG's time is one of the likely factors for their longevity, IMHO.

1. "Prohibitively far" from each other
a. Constitution: 396' reactor to single nacelle
b. Reliant: 326' reactor to single nacelle
c. Excelsior: 616' reactor to single nacelle

The Excelsior is the worst in distance. The Reliant the best.

2. "Occupational hazard for the crew" as in more length = more danger to radiation
*The Excelsior and Constitution limit power conduit exposure to Engineering hull and neck. Reliant runs into the single hull. Constellation also is connected to the single hull.
a. Constitution: 186' reactor to warp pylons. 262' total if include to impulse deck
b. Reliant: 562' reactor to warp pylons.
c. Excelsior: 366' reactor to warp pylon hump. 470' total in include to impulse deck

The Constitution is the best as the warp pylons compose of most of the conduits. Reliant is the worst because of the short pylons and most of the conduit running internally to the main hull.

3. Upgrade friendliness (or future increases in size of hardware)
a. Constitution: Increased reactor facilities could reclaim cargo bay area. (This will lead to reduction in cargo space.)
b. Reliant: Increased reactor facilities could expand into cargo/shuttle bays. Note: warp pylons are almost half as thin as Constitution indicating a possible max limit increase in power transfer to warp nacelles.
c. Excelsior: Plenty of room to expand.

Constitution is the worst as it loses the cargo space of a limited volume engineering hull. Reliant is the most flexible due to her boxy nature. Excelsior has significantly more volume.

Note: I haven't had time to take a look at the Constellations.

blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 12:27 AM   #257
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
The Excelsior is the worst in distance.
Unless, of course, the main reactor is in the pod between the nacelle pylons.

The Excelsior and Constitution limit power conduit exposure to Engineering hull and neck. Reliant runs into the single hull.
And Reliant's hull configuration means the conduits do not need to run directly through the engine room in order to reach the nacelles. Arguably, they do not even run through an inhabited section of the ship since the shuttle bays and their machinery are located in that area; radiation leaks in that case would only affect the relatively empty aft compartment and would be that much easier to contain (meanwhile, most of the engineering spaces are FORWARD of both the reactor and the conduits and can likewise be isolated from them in the event of an incident).

So without having to babysit a potentially troublesome power transfer fork point, Reliant can keep its engine room just aft of the saucer like a normal starship, allowing for some degree of survivable radiation containment in the event of an accident.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 05:27 AM   #258
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
No, YOU have a GUESS at what it would look like in that position.
No, WE have an EXAMPLE of what it would look like in that position as shown in a screen capture of a spark at a later frame.
The spark is considerably brighter than the torpedo impact and is reflected by a larger portion of the hull. It remains a guess on your part that the two have similar illumination characteristics.
The spark is actually placed between the impulse deck and bridge module and is lighting up the front of the impulse deck as EXPECTED. The torpedo explosion frame does not have that characteristic and cannot be where you think it is.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Anyway, I'm not going any further into this until you can explain why both the moment of impact flash manages to light up the starboard side of the bridge dome if the impact point itself is on the port side.
At the initial explosion frame it's glare. The 2nd frame of the explosion is gas as you can also see it wrap around to the bridge port side. Until you can explain why the 1st frame doesn't light up the impulse deck you can't prove it exploding between the impulse deck and bridge.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The reason is pretty self evidence, considering they replaced the ship with the Enterprise-B only a year later.
That doesn't tell us anything beyond that they had planned another ship with the Enterprise name.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
It IS obsolete and falling apart. It just doesn't LOOK that way unless you look at it closely.
Ah. It's just when you described it as a "rusty old piece of shit you couldn't sell it for a candy bar" it describes something that easily appears falling apart and rusted out and not something that would require close inspection.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Not exactly the same bunk, but after they find one of the gravity boots in the locker of "Crewman Dax", there are fifteen people standing with Spock and staff. Ten of them are enlisted crew, the other four are Spoock, Uhura, Chekov and Mister Tibbs (Valeris is off screen). Behind the crewmen on the right we see three bunks (one of the noncoms is sitting on the top bunk).

We know why the senior officers are there, but why are the noncoms hanging around? It's pretty obvious: because this is their quarters.
I thought it was just as obvious the extras noncoms were part of the crew assigned to search for these boots and they were standing around out of curiosity.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
But even if you assume the ship is NOT hot bunking... why, all of a sudden, is the Enterprise fitting three racks in crew quarters when it's actual crew complement hasn't changed at all? We already know the enlisted men on the TOS ship all had their own quarters (Janice Rand in particular)
Janice Rand is the only noncom that we know in TOS that had her own cabin and she was Kirk's assigned yeoman. Did we see other noncoms have their own room or was it just a perk of being the Captain's Yeoman? On the same vein, why does Excelsior also have the bunking rooms? She's a bigger ship with far greater volume but her crew is what, 100-300 more than Enterprise's?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
as did the crews on the much more primitive NX-01. Three racks in a single room would seem to be an unusual situation aboard a starship, and the hot-bunking implied in this scene would be HIGHLY unusual. The most likely explanation, IMO, is that extensive repairs and modifications to keep the ship up to date has taken up a larger and larger portion of its internal space and forced more than half of the crew out of their normal quarters.
Or a simpler explanation is that noncoms normally get bunks.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The problem with this claim is that the ships contemporary with Enterprise were never upgraded internally. It seems that Stargazer and possibly Lantree received a few new consoles and some systems as part of its LCARS conversion, but we have no idea when that conversion was done or why or even HOW. It's not as if we saw the rebuilt USS Reliant running around with the fleet in DS9, now is it?
How do we know they weren't upgraded internally beyond a few panels? If the panels were converted, what's to stop them from upgrading systems all the way into TNG/DS9? If you look at the Lantree, her small crew would suggest considerable changes in order to not need the large crews of the movie period.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
We never got to see the bridge of the Repulse at all, but this ship as well as the Lantree are both seen functioning as courier/transport ships, basically ferrying people and material from one place to another. It's highly unlikely they have the chops for a full-fledged exploration mission like the (arguably much newer) USS Hood.
According to "Tin Man", all the Hood ever does is go back and forth between starbases We're not given a good look at the Repulse or the Hood so it's unknown if the two ships were or were not capable of the same missions.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Here you run into the problem that space ships are not boats. The "hull" of a spacecraft is analogous to the main pressure vessel that keeps in the atmosphere and houses the ship's habitable volume. Since the TMP Enterprise is said to be a "refit" and not a brand new starship,
Both Decker and Scotty state that the Enterprise was redesigned and refitted. Most if not all of the ship was redesigned so you can't really say the ship was not designed for the new technology.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
that means something of the original was left in the design. It obviously wasn't the "spaceframe" as such because the new ship has a different shape as the old. But the pressure vessel -- IRL, a fairly expensive and difficult component to build -- could easily have been preserved, with Starfleet replacing the outer hull plating, nacelle pylons and other internal/external components while slightly modifying the pressure hull.
It would be quite illuminating if you can show how this pressure vessel would work going from the TOS and TMP versions.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
No. Constellation, for example, has a five-deck saucer and a big chunk of space between its impulse engines that could house the reactor in its entirety (assuming the same powerplant as the Constitution class). Miranda's aft section is also about five decks thick and the space between its shuttle bays is almost as wide as the Enterprise's secondary hull.
You had said that a Constitution's saucer would be too small to fit a main reactor and I agree and question wouldn't that be the same for Reliant and/or Constellation. In the Reliant's case it would be same problem and they had to build an extended hull to accommodate that and the shuttlebays. The Constellation just enlarged the saucer height-wise to get it to fit.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
While it may seem like they end up having the same volume, the cylindrical secondary hull actually gives you less USEFUL volume with the same dimensions.
Of course, boxy gives you more volume in that case.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Actually, the explosion on the bridge happened immediately after Kirk's torpedo hit their port nacelle. It seemed to affect the engineering compartment as well, but we don't really know why.

The engineering crew also survived just fine. Again, after the pod was destroyed Kirk turns his attention on the port nacelle; phaser blast there, and we see Khan's crew falling over railings in engineering. Then the torpedo strike, and the bridge explodes.
I re-watched it and you are correct. NM about the torpedo pod being a danger to the crew.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Compare with what would have happened to the ENTERPRISE if the torpedo bay had exploded in such a way. Apart from potentially decapitating the entire ship,
It might not be so bad. Reliant's torpedo pod exploded but it stayed attached to the rollbar. And the rollbar didn't seem too damaged. Enterprise's neck is thicker than the rollbar so it might not be as bad.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
the intermix chamber runs BETWEEN those tubes, and the torpedo deck is not more than six meters above main engineering.
Well I doubt the intermix chamber runs between the tubes simply because the intermix chamber in the engineering hull is further back because of that forward corridor we see in TMP.

The other thing is that we do see the torpedo bay explode from the port side and it didn't kill Scotty down below or catastrophically effect the intermix chamber or the starboard torpedo bay.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
I think if you applied your same arguments to the Reliants, Constellations and Excelsiors you'll find that they could all suffer from the same issues you have with the TMP Enterprise.
I did that already. The fact of the matter is they wouldn't have this problem because they would have been designed from the outset to mitigate it. Reliant, in particular, appears to be a ship that was specifically designed around an intermix-style power system so that the power conduits can run straight to the nacelle without going past anything that people are likely to care about; if they run skin-deep along the bottom of the hull, they would be able to pass right through those two "vent" structures on the belly (sometimes thought to be navigational deflectors) while avoiding both the main saucer section and any part of the ship's internal environment.
Those power conduits are still in the hull though. It's not any different than the Enterprise's horizontal shaft going to the nacelle pylons except that there's alot more internal piping on the Reliant.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The Excelsiors would avoid this issue also by moving their reactor components into the bulge.
Is there any indication that they were designed that way though?
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 05:32 AM   #259
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
The Excelsior is the worst in distance.
Unless, of course, the main reactor is in the pod between the nacelle pylons.
Is there any evidence to support this?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The Excelsior and Constitution limit power conduit exposure to Engineering hull and neck. Reliant runs into the single hull.
And Reliant's hull configuration means the conduits do not need to run directly through the engine room in order to reach the nacelles.
The conduits need to run off the vertical intermix from the engine room so I'm not sure how they wouldn't interface with the engine room.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Arguably, they do not even run through an inhabited section of the ship since the shuttle bays and their machinery are located in that area; radiation leaks in that case would only affect the relatively empty aft compartment and would be that much easier to contain (meanwhile, most of the engineering spaces are FORWARD of both the reactor and the conduits and can likewise be isolated from them in the event of an incident).
The horizontal conduits of the Enterprise don't run through an inhabited part of the ship either. The isolation door kept the engineroom in TWOK from getting irradiated as well. What advantage does the Reliant's setup have again?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
So without having to babysit a potentially troublesome power transfer fork point, Reliant can keep its engine room just aft of the saucer like a normal starship, allowing for some degree of survivable radiation containment in the event of an accident.
Which isn't any different than the Enterprise or Excelsior.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 04:42 PM   #260
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

I remember having taken some pounding for suggesting that Reliant's roll-bar pod might contain the antimatter for warp drive.

I just accidentally found an early design proposal for the Reliant.

Bearing in mind that the Official TMP Blueprints identified the front structures of the nacelles as "space-energy/matter sinks (acquisition)", i.e. intakes for space hydrogen aka matter reactants for M/AM annihilation, I'd say my idea wasn't that farfetched.

Matter comes in from the top, antimatter from the pods below.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 05:03 PM   #261
Praetor
Vice Admiral
 
Praetor's Avatar
 
Location: The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Eh? But aren't those in the concept just torpedo pods?

I'm increasingly inclined to think refit-style tech and previous had the primary reactors in the nacelles themselves. The only "real" difference between refit and TOS would be that refit tech would be more advanced and more heavily interconnected than in the TOS era. The Excelsior might be the first ship to do differently, with no reactors in the nacelles at all. It would certainly help explain the wraparound band around the Excelsior nacelles.
__________________
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q
Praetor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 05:47 PM   #262
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Yeah, I don't think there is too much difference between the TOS warp engines and the TMP warp engines in placement of reactors and power conduits. I think the materials and equipment are more advanced in TMP where they are exposed to the engine room instead of being hidden behind walls of baffle plates during the TOS days.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 07:07 PM   #263
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Praetor wrote: View Post
But aren't those in the concept just torpedo pods?
It doesn't say so in the preliminary sketch but if these were just torpedo pods I'd say these are rather huge for just that purpose, wouldn't you agree?

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 15 2013, 10:04 PM   #264
J.T.B.
Commodore
 
J.T.B.'s Avatar
 
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
It doesn't say so in the preliminary sketch but if these were just torpedo pods I'd say these are rather huge for just that purpose, wouldn't you agree?
Maybe not, if they had torpedoe magazines in them.
J.T.B. is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 16 2013, 12:49 AM   #265
Praetor
Vice Admiral
 
Praetor's Avatar
 
Location: The fine line between continuity and fanwank.
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Eh, I'd wager that by volume, each one isn't any bigger than the single pod on the actual Miranda, and probably smaller.
__________________
"If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross; but it's not for the timid." - Q
Praetor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 17 2013, 05:46 PM   #266
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
At the initial explosion frame it's glare.
It's not glare. It's the same momentarily illumination that belies the impact point on the bird of prey. On Enterprise -- a much larger ship -- The illumination there follows the torpedo's path across the hull and is present BEFORE the torpedo detonates; at the moment of impact it brightens only slightly before being swallowed by the fireball of the subsequent explosion.

The illumination there suggests an impact point on the starboard side, VERY close to the bridge. The after effects get close to the impulse engine, to be sure, but the are widespread throughout the entire aft portion of the saucer and do not linger significantly near the impact point.

Until you can explain why the 1st frame doesn't light up the impulse deck
I already did: it isn't CLOSE enough to light up the impulse deck. It lights up the bridge because its impact point is only about ten meters from the dome; from that same point it's almost fifty meters to the impulse engine.

That doesn't tell us anything beyond that they had planned another ship with the Enterprise name.
Which would have been necessary only if the old ship had actually outlived it's usefulness and was DUE for replacement in the first place.

I thought it was just as obvious the extras noncoms were part of the crew assigned to search for these boots and they were standing around out of curiosity.
Except that, earlier, Valeris says the crew is "turning their own quarters inside-out, but the killers may still be among them."

If these people are searching this room, it's because it IS their own quarters after all.

Janice Rand is the only noncom that we know in TOS that had her own cabin and she was Kirk's assigned yeoman.
Since when do yeoman rate their own quarters they don't have to share with anyone?

Or a simpler explanation is that noncoms normally get bunks.
Previous Enterprises never used them (even Crewman Daniels has his own private cabin on NX-01) nor subsequent Enterprises where even Chief O'Brien seems to have regular-sized quarters big enough to raise a small family. What's do different about Kirk's era?

How do we know they weren't upgraded internally beyond a few panels?
Because for few ships we see in DETAIL, it's obvious that they weren't. Stargazer, for example, has LCARS computers sharing space with 2280s duotronic circuitry and even some of its most basic features -- turbolifts, for example -- are unchanged from its original launch configuration.

For early-model Constellations like Hathaway and Stargazer, that's probably the limits of their capacity to upgrade; the former was on the ragged edge of serviceability in the 24th century while the latter was effectively already in mothballs. More advanced designs like the Excelsiors don't seem to have this problem and can accept LCARS conversion just fine.

The absence of the Constitution class in the 24th century suggests they could not handle LCARS at all. This is probably because the intermediate step before LCARS (multitronics?) introduced on Excelsior were incredibly difficult to integrate into the older Constitution class.

If the panels were converted, what's to stop them from upgrading systems all the way into TNG/DS9?
Speaking from experience? A load-bearing bulkhead in an inconvenient place that cannot be further compromised to accommodate cable trunking and therefore must be bypassed by an elaborate workaround; later designs would have omitted the bulkhead altogether to allow for easier swapping in/out of computer equipment, but on the older design you have to physically reconstruct the entire compartment in order to fit the new component inside. You can't usually get away with that more than two or three times in a ship's lifespan, and from what we can tell, the Constitutions had already done this at least twice already before the TMP conversion.

According to "Tin Man", all the Hood ever does is go back and forth between starbases
According to "Brothers" the Repulse is on an active mission of exploration. Also, the Hood's Captain DeSoto is a household name in Starfleet; moreover, the Hood -- a late-model Excelsior type -- is described in various episodes as receiving systems upgrades to stay current with the rest of the fleet. So even if Hood is at least 40 years old, it has upgrade potential that the Constellations and Mirandas -- both much newer than the Constitution class -- unquestionably lack.

Both Decker and Scotty state that the Enterprise was redesigned and refitted. Most if not all of the ship was redesigned so you can't really say the ship was not designed for the new technology.
Of course it was designed for new technology (that's what it RECEIVED, isn't it?). What it wasn't designed for is FUTURE technology. Considering the refit only took about three years to complete AND considering how radical that transformation really was, that means all of the systems that were installed on Enterprise (with the possible exception of its warp drives) were fully developed and mature technologies before the ship ever entered space dock. The TMP refit didn't accomplish much, in that case, except to bring the ship up to parity with the rest of the 2270s fleet. Within only ten short years with the release of newer designs and new technologies being developed the ship was AGAIN starting to show its age, and this time further upgrades were no longer feasible.

You had said that a Constitution's saucer would be too small to fit a main reactor and I agree and question wouldn't that be the same for Reliant and/or Constellation.
And the answer -- once again -- is that Constellation's saucer is five decks thick and considerably wider than the Constitutions. The Miranda's saucer extends into that larger aft compartment which is, again, about five decks thick and large enough to accommodate an entire engineering section.

Let's consider the latter case for a moment: it could very well be that the original design for the Miranda (or the ships they wound up replacing) were just saucers with warp nacelles bolted onto them, not unlike the Mayflower type starships of the JJ-Verse. The addition of more powerful reactor types and the recognized need for greater cargo/shuttle storage neccesistated the construction of an "engineering wing" to house all of that equipment. Constellation wouldn't have this problem because it's ALREADY large enough to accommodate all of it in a single hull.

Well I doubt the intermix chamber runs between the tubes simply because the intermix chamber in the engineering hull is further back because of that forward corridor we see in TMP.
Or maybe the TMP Enterprise is simply larger than we've been told. Its "official" length isn't canon, after all, and various posters here have demonstrated conclusively that most of the ship's components (especially the drop-door in engineering) wouldn't actually fit inside of it unless it was at least 340 meters long.

The other thing is that we do see the torpedo bay explode from the port side and it didn't kill Scotty down below or catastrophically effect the intermix chamber or the starboard torpedo bay.
That's mainly because the torpedo bay didn't explode. A phaser beam tore into it and set the compartment on fire, but it didn't damage the torpedoes or detonate anything else.

Those power conduits are still in the hull though. It's not any different than the Enterprise's horizontal shaft going to the nacelle pylons except that there's alot more internal piping on the Reliant.
But the internal piping on Reliant DOESN'T have to go through the engine room or through any part of the ship inhabitted by humans. If you haven't noticed, this also the case for the Enterprise-D, which has its plasma conduits leading AWAY from engineering and through sealed trunks that cut through the hull without sharing the habitable environment of the ship.

Is there any indication that they were designed that way though?
Impossible to know, since we know next to nothing about the Excelsiors. OTOH, the presence of the bulge ITSELF is rather difficult to explain, especially considering the odd skinniness of its secondary hull in that section. If the bulge contains a central reactor to feed the nacelles, the skinny hull makes a lot more sense: the engine room would be BENEATH the bulge, and the entire reactor compartment is simply placed at a standoff distance from the rest of the ship in case of a major radiation leak.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 09:11 AM   #267
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
At the initial explosion frame it's glare.
It's not glare. It's the same momentarily illumination that belies the impact point on the bird of prey. On Enterprise -- a much larger ship -- The illumination there follows the torpedo's path across the hull and is present BEFORE the torpedo detonates; at the moment of impact it brightens only slightly before being swallowed by the fireball of the subsequent explosion.
It's glare. For it to be an explosion then the explosion point would illuminate everything in a spherical direction. If it can illuminate the entire starboard side of the bridge module as you suggest it can reach the impulse deck and illuminate it as brightly as well.

Because it does not, the explosion point cannot be behind/starboard of the bridge but further back, portside of the impulse deck.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Which would have been necessary only if the old ship had actually outlived it's usefulness and was DUE for replacement in the first place.
Well then the Enterprise could not be obsolete if she's sent on a high profile escort mission. So obsolete isn't one of the possible reasons. Financial, political, or something else, yes.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Except that, earlier, Valeris says the crew is "turning their own quarters inside-out, but the killers may still be among them."
The boots scene with Dax comes later, after Chekov find the blood on the transporter. Spock orders the search expanded out and now everyone available is searching everywhere, including the corridor panels, lockers, clothes area, etc. At this point it is difficult to say it's their "own" quarters.
SPOCK: Now we expand our search to include uniforms.
CHEKOV: All uniforms?
We see earlier that their are at least 9 bunk beds in 3 free standing columns in a room. The scene where we have the boots there were 3 bunks next to a wall. That could boost the room capacity to 12. There were about 9 people dressed as "crew" and 2 officers not including the main cast so those present could be bunking in there or just guys that were opening everything up hanging around.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Since when do yeoman rate their own quarters they don't have to share with anyone?
We saw Yeoman Rand have her own quarters in "Charlie X". We did not see any other yeoman quarters during TOS, AFAIK. TUC shows crew bunk beds and "Flashback" showed the Excelsior also using bunk beds.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Previous Enterprises never used them (even Crewman Daniels has his own private cabin on NX-01) nor subsequent Enterprises where even Chief O'Brien seems to have regular-sized quarters big enough to raise a small family. What's do different about Kirk's era?
Different ships, different era, different requirements. Sulu's Excelsior also had bunks.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Because for few ships we see in DETAIL, it's obvious that they weren't. Stargazer, for example, has LCARS computers sharing space with 2280s duotronic circuitry and even some of its most basic features -- turbolifts, for example -- are unchanged from its original launch configuration.

For early-model Constellations like Hathaway and Stargazer, that's probably the limits of their capacity to upgrade; the former was on the ragged edge of serviceability in the 24th century while the latter was effectively already in mothballs. More advanced designs like the Excelsiors don't seem to have this problem and can accept LCARS conversion just fine.
Then how does that account for the Enterprise-A which if it was a new build would've been close to the USS Hathaway/Stargazer's age. If she was a redesign/upgrade then she'd be the second known conversion. In either case, where do we see on the Stargazer or the Hathaway the use of LCARS?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
The absence of the Constitution class in the 24th century suggests they could not handle LCARS at all. This is probably because the intermediate step before LCARS (multitronics?) introduced on Excelsior were incredibly difficult to integrate into the older Constitution class.
It's possible that the cost of continuous upgrading outweighed keeping the Constitutions around. Although I'm not finding any examples of LCARS on the Hathaway or Stargazer so any screencaps would be helpful.


Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Speaking from experience? A load-bearing bulkhead in an inconvenient place that cannot be further compromised to accommodate cable trunking and therefore must be bypassed by an elaborate workaround; later designs would have omitted the bulkhead altogether to allow for easier swapping in/out of computer equipment, but on the older design you have to physically reconstruct the entire compartment in order to fit the new component inside. You can't usually get away with that more than two or three times in a ship's lifespan, and from what we can tell, the Constitutions had already done this at least twice already before the TMP conversion.
Speaking from observation, the TOS Enterprise saw more than two changes prior to her conversion especially around the engine room and running new pipes and circuitry around the ship didn't appear to be an issue. In anycase, if based on your argument above that the Constellations didn't upgrade much then the Enterprise-A would've also not needed to upgrade much as it would've had the same systems given that it was built much later / around the time the Hathaway / Stargazer were built.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
According to "Brothers" the Repulse is on an active mission of exploration. Also, the Hood's Captain DeSoto is a household name in Starfleet; moreover, the Hood -- a late-model Excelsior type -- is described in various episodes as receiving systems upgrades to stay current with the rest of the fleet. So even if Hood is at least 40 years old, it has upgrade potential that the Constellations and Mirandas -- both much newer than the Constitution class -- unquestionably lack.
Which episodes described the Hood as receiving systems upgrades?

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Of course it was designed for new technology (that's what it RECEIVED, isn't it?). What it wasn't designed for is FUTURE technology. Considering the refit only took about three years to complete AND considering how radical that transformation really was, that means all of the systems that were installed on Enterprise (with the possible exception of its warp drives) were fully developed and mature technologies before the ship ever entered space dock. The TMP refit didn't accomplish much, in that case, except to bring the ship up to parity with the rest of the 2270s fleet.

Within only ten short years with the release of newer designs and new technologies being developed the ship was AGAIN starting to show its age, and this time further upgrades were no longer feasible.
The question then is what future technology couldn't she take? As you've pointed out, not much changed on the Hathaway and Stargazer.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
And the answer -- once again -- is that Constellation's saucer is five decks thick and considerably wider than the Constitutions. The Miranda's saucer extends into that larger aft compartment which is, again, about five decks thick and large enough to accommodate an entire engineering section.
That's what I was getting at -the Reliant and Constellation couldn't fit one either and had to build an expansion to house it which would be equivalent to the Constitution's engineering hull. So saying the Constitution's saucer was too small to fit a main reactor is true in all three cases and they still had to build something else to accommodate it.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Let's consider the latter case for a moment: it could very well be that the original design for the Miranda (or the ships they wound up replacing) were just saucers with warp nacelles bolted onto them, not unlike the Mayflower type starships of the JJ-Verse. The addition of more powerful reactor types and the recognized need for greater cargo/shuttle storage neccesistated the construction of an "engineering wing" to house all of that equipment. Constellation wouldn't have this problem because it's ALREADY large enough to accommodate all of it in a single hull.
Of course and one of the reasons IMO that the Constitutions didn't continue on was simply lack of cargo space compared to the Reliant's and Constellations. The engineering hull simply wasn't big enough.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Or maybe the TMP Enterprise is simply larger than we've been told. Its "official" length isn't canon, after all, and various posters here have demonstrated conclusively that most of the ship's components (especially the drop-door in engineering) wouldn't actually fit inside of it unless it was at least 340 meters long.
Still, the long corridor in front of the engineering room would push it back which would prevent the intermix shaft from passing in between the torpedo tubes, even on a ship as large as 355m.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
That's mainly because the torpedo bay didn't explode. A phaser beam tore into it and set the compartment on fire, but it didn't damage the torpedoes or detonate anything else.
Even if it did explode like the Reliant's pod, the Enterprise has got a far thicker neck than the Reliant's thin rollbar. If the Reliant's pod didn't get blown clean off, I am doubting that the Enterprise would be any worse.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Those power conduits are still in the hull though. It's not any different than the Enterprise's horizontal shaft going to the nacelle pylons except that there's alot more internal piping on the Reliant.
But the internal piping on Reliant DOESN'T have to go through the engine room
The piping has to connect to the vertical shaft somewhere in the engine room.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
or through any part of the ship inhabitted by humans.
The Enterprise's horizontal shaft doesn't pass through any "inhabited" parts of the ship unless you count that access area that can be sealed by the dropdown door. If that's what you're counting as "inhabited" then the Reliant would have the same problem.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
If you haven't noticed, this also the case for the Enterprise-D, which has its plasma conduits leading AWAY from engineering and through sealed trunks that cut through the hull without sharing the habitable environment of the ship.
I can't comment as I don't know what the conduit looks like beyond the point it branches off the vertical core.

Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
Is there any indication that they were designed that way though?
Impossible to know, since we know next to nothing about the Excelsiors. OTOH, the presence of the bulge ITSELF is rather difficult to explain, especially considering the odd skinniness of its secondary hull in that section. If the bulge contains a central reactor to feed the nacelles, the skinny hull makes a lot more sense: the engine room would be BENEATH the bulge, and the entire reactor compartment is simply placed at a standoff distance from the rest of the ship in case of a major radiation leak.
We do have a scene in TSFS where we catch the edge of a vertical intermix shaft so it's likely going to resemble the Enterprise's engineering. In Generations we can see the MSDS show what appears to be a vertical shaft behind the main sensor/deflector in the engineering hull but not one in the hump.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 12:01 PM   #268
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
We saw Yeoman Rand have her own quarters in "Charlie X". We did not see any other yeoman quarters during TOS, AFAIK. TUC shows crew bunk beds and "Flashback" showed the Excelsior also using bunk beds.
Yeoman Rand had a special and privileged status acting as the captain's secretary, maid and else. In "Charlie X" she's apparently working on a report and given occasional "captain's-eyes-only" reports she needs to have a private cabin in contrast to other crew members.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Of course and one of the reasons IMO that the Constitutions didn't continue on was simply lack of cargo space compared to the Reliant's and Constellations. The engineering hull simply wasn't big enough.
Considering the space aboard Enterprise now devoted to freight in the engineering hull in TMP I'm unable to follow here.

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
The piping has to connect to the vertical shaft somewhere in the engine room.
I'd say that's inconclusive. Reliant's impulse deflection crystal had been destroyed so it stands to reason than any vertical intermix shaft leading up there was shut and/or sealed off.
What we saw later could have just been a vertical shaft next to / extending from the port nacelle (i.e, there's one port and starboard).

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
We do have a scene in TSFS where we catch the edge of a vertical intermix shaft so it's likely going to resemble the Enterprise's engineering.
We barely catch this edge on the left side of the frame .
What we do see is a crewman standing at a console next to a wall which could indicate a desire not to reveal the shaft (or does it just shield the main energizer room ST II from curious eyes?) There is some kind of cylindrical object in front of him (apparently a segment of the intermix shaft) that could equally pass for a TOS engine room floor casing containing the dilithium crystal converter assembly.
The absence of illumination from the shaft that's supposed to be there could suggest something different. Even if the system was offline there should be bluish illumination somehow according to ST II.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein

Last edited by Robert Comsol; September 19 2013 at 12:27 PM.
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 19 2013, 02:02 PM   #269
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
We saw Yeoman Rand have her own quarters in "Charlie X". We did not see any other yeoman quarters during TOS, AFAIK. TUC shows crew bunk beds and "Flashback" showed the Excelsior also using bunk beds.
Yeoman Rand had a special and privileged status acting as the captain's secretary, maid and else. In "Charlie X" she's apparently working on a report and given occasional "captain's-eyes-only" reports she needs to have a private cabin in contrast to other crew members.
Yeah, the Captain's Yeoman would likely have her own private quarters compared to the other Yeomans.


Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Of course and one of the reasons IMO that the Constitutions didn't continue on was simply lack of cargo space compared to the Reliant's and Constellations. The engineering hull simply wasn't big enough.
Considering the space aboard Enterprise now devoted to freight in the engineering hull in TMP I'm unable to follow here.
I've been studying volume between the three ships and will post up a graphic this evening. Basically the thinking was how upgradeable would the ship be if future engineering equipment needed more space? The Enterprise would be trading it's cargo space for engineering space and she has alot less of it due to the shape of the engineering hull.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
The piping has to connect to the vertical shaft somewhere in the engine room.
I'd say that's inconclusive. Reliant's impulse deflection crystal had been destroyed so it stands to reason than any vertical intermix shaft leading up there was shut and/or sealed off.
What we saw later could have just been a vertical shaft next to / extending from the port nacelle (i.e, there's one port and starboard).
My reply is questioning Crazie Eddie's assertion that horizontal power conduits ("piping") would not have to go through the engine room. We know that to run the power to the nacelles you need to connect to the vertical shaft in the engine room at least one horizontal shaft to lead off to the nacelles so the piping must be present in the engine room. It has nothing to do with the impulse deflection crystal.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
We do have a scene in TSFS where we catch the edge of a vertical intermix shaft so it's likely going to resemble the Enterprise's engineering.
We barely catch this edge on the left side of the frame .
We catch enough to see the edge of the connecting ring (bottom left) and the edge of one of the "blades" that make up a section of the intermix shaft.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
What we do see is a crewman standing at a console next to a wall which could indicate a desire not to reveal the shaft (or does it just shield the main energizer room ST II from curious eyes?) There is some kind of cylindrical object in front of him (apparently a segment of the intermix shaft) that could equally pass for a TOS engine room floor casing containing the dilithium crystal converter assembly.
The absence of illumination from the shaft that's supposed to be there could suggest something different. Even if the system was offline there should be bluish illumination somehow according to ST II.
Having a system offline would be different than having it shutoff and cold. In TWOK, offline was not having the ability to use the energizers to power stuff but the main reactor was still on. Excelsior's main reactor appears to have been turned off for whatever reason at the time Scotty is walking out.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 22 2013, 03:14 AM   #270
Crazy Eddie
Rear Admiral
 
Crazy Eddie's Avatar
 
Location: I'm in your ___, ___ing your ___
Re: So many Mirandas/So few Constitution-refits?

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Crazy Eddie wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
At the initial explosion frame it's glare.
It's not glare. It's the same momentarily illumination that belies the impact point on the bird of prey. On Enterprise -- a much larger ship -- The illumination there follows the torpedo's path across the hull and is present BEFORE the torpedo detonates; at the moment of impact it brightens only slightly before being swallowed by the fireball of the subsequent explosion.
It's glare. For it to be an explosion then the explosion point would illuminate everything in a spherical direction.
Inverse square law: the brightness of the flash reduces as a function of distance (which is why the TORPEDO doesn't illuminate everything around it.

If it can illuminate the entire starboard side of the bridge module as you suggest it can reach the impulse deck and illuminate it as brightly as well.
Only if it is equidistant from the impulse deck. In this case, it is actually 5 times closer to the bridge dome as the impulse deck, which means the reflection on the bridge dome is 25 times greater. The reflection on the rest of the ship is apparently too dim to be perceived at all.

Then how does that account for the Enterprise-A which if it was a new build would've been close to the USS Hathaway/Stargazer's age.
Simple: Enterprise-A wasn't a new build.

In either case, where do we see on the Stargazer or the Hathaway the use of LCARS?
The displays on the back wall of the Stargazer bridge feature an LCARS-style graphic. Hathaway, IIRC, has several such displays in its engine room and a few on its bridge consoles. The Stargazer's log screen is more ambiguous, but fortunately is totally consistent with the display style seen on the Excelsior class ships. It COULD be consistent with some of the displays on the Enterprise-A, which -- again -- would explain why the ship was in such a sorry state in TFF (the retrofits didn't work nearly as well as Starfleet hoped).

Speaking from observation, the TOS Enterprise saw more than two changes prior to her conversion especially around the engine room and running new pipes and circuitry around the ship didn't appear to be an issue. In anycase, if based on your argument above that the Constellations didn't upgrade much
Actually my suggestion is that the Constellations DID manage to upgrade a bit over the years; they were able to be kept current with only minor expansions and replacements of instrumentation, sensors, weapons and other drop-in components that could be easily integrated into their systems. The point here is that even the converted Constitutions couldn't be kept current so easily.

Which episodes described the Hood as receiving systems upgrades?
There are about a dozen references in Okudagrams and background references. It's also implied as recieving the same upgrades as the Lakota in time for the Dominion War.

The question then is what future technology couldn't she take? As you've pointed out, not much changed on the Hathaway and Stargazer.
I've seen feasibility studies floated by analysts who proposed upgrading the space shuttle orbiters using more modern/off-the-shelf technology. Someone pointed out -- correctly -- that contemporary avionics systems used in military aircraft had twenty to thirty times the computing power of the shuttle's entire computing array and that all seven of the oribter's GPCs could be repalced by a single computing module. This also turned out to be true of the ship's life support and cooling systems, which were slightly revised 1970s technology.

All of those studies came around, however, to the same basic conclusion: for the cost of breaking down, redesigning and rebuilding the space shuttle's avionics, electronics and life support systems just to upgrade them, it would actually be cheaper to build a totally new one and design those systems into the new design in the first place.

In the case of the Constitution class, it appears the new systems that were being retrofitted at CONSIDERABLE cost -- to the old Constitution class ships were being designed into brand new starships from the outset, which would have unquestionably included expansion slots for new systems that were being planned but not yet fully realized. Since the original Enterprise was destroyed and the inauspicious Enterprise-A was eventually decommissioned (likewise, probably a very old design) it would as simple as starfleet simply choosing not to build any more Constitutions after the last two in the fleet were pulled.

That's what I was getting at -the Reliant and Constellation couldn't fit one either and had to build an expansion to house it...
An expansion which was a feature of every NEW Miranda and Constellation the moment their hulls began construction. They wouldn't build them to the old configuration and convert them later, they'd just build them that way from the very beginning.

So saying the Constitution's saucer was too small to fit a main reactor is true in all three cases and they still had to build something else to accommodate it.
Exactly: in order to accommodate it, they built something OTHER than a Constitution class.

The piping has to connect to the vertical shaft somewhere in the engine room.
It doesn't HAVE to at all. It possibly does, because Starfleet engineers like to be able to physically look at their drive cores, but on Reliant the intermix chamber can be isolated from the rest of the engineering compartment room (the same way it can on the Enterprise-D) without dropping a gigantic pressure door and cutting the main plasma conduit in half.

The Enterprise's horizontal shaft doesn't pass through any "inhabited" parts of the ship
Not after Khan gets through with it, no.
__________________
The Complete Illustrated Guide to Starfleet - Online Now!
Crazy Eddie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:13 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.