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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old August 1 2013, 06:56 PM   #31
Cap'n Claus
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Re: JJverse converts

The whole "all kids have ADD" thing is a bunch of bullshit anyway. That's just another version of the older generation crabbing about how "kids don't understand nothing good" that they're parents said about them. It's what every single older generation says about the younger. "They don't like it unless it's got 'splosions, quick cuts, loud rock music and shaky cam." Just because they're used to what the standard for blockbuster entertainment is doesn't make them closed to other things. What many people don't enjoy, though (and this ain't just kids), is dated TV and movies. Lots of us like what we grew up with and what we're used to. In 40 years, they'll be nostalgic for what they like today. But their kids will mock how cheesy it all seems. "They can't see past the old effects!" Well for some people, even the best effects from 50 years earlier are simply "bad" today.

Some people don't care about effects and are fine with watching an outdated style of acting. But you won't find them in the majority. I'm 45, I grew up with Star Trek and enjoy old movies and TV. But even I couldn't watch the James Cagney movie "The Public Enemy" without laughing at some of it. Or rolling my eyes at how the sublte, real acting by Burgess Meredeth and Lon Chaney Jr in "Of Mice and Men" was countered by over the top mugging by a few who couldn't adjust to "talkies."

Oh, I also have ADD. Only those who live with it can tell you what fresh hell it is. Yet, I still can sit through an old movie or TV show if I find it interesting. Tastes change with every generation. To old people, every new is crap. I got news for ya, the generation before ours thought the stuff we revere was crap, too.

Younger people will like or dislike 60's Star Trek based on their tastes.
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Old August 1 2013, 06:57 PM   #32
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Re: JJverse converts

Melakon wrote: View Post
All I can say is, it's a good thing TOS was filmed in color, or some people would refuse to watch it just because of that. It saddens me that there are those who ignore some of the greatest films in history because they're in black and white.
For some people, watching something in black & white will simply never "feel right". It is what it is.

I watched TOS in both color and black & white. I had a small 13" b&w TV in my bedroom and we had a color TV in the living room growing up, so it was never an issue for me.
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Old August 1 2013, 06:59 PM   #33
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Re: JJverse converts

I'm a little troubled by the inclusion of real-world science trends in TOS novels ... Diane Duane kept referencing a shipboard BBS in one and I'm thinking each time that this is like calling subspace radio a telegraph system.

Back on an earlier point, with CONSCIENCE you have a show failing on its own terms, w/o the issue of science that isn't included or wasn't even conceived of. You have them saying they will KNOW when his voice is recorded ... and instead, they don't know. They make it sound like the science issue a done deal, but it is arbitrarily dispensed with.

Back when I had time to waste on such, I used to rank it at #78 (right before AND THE CHILDREN SHALL LEAD), but the 'phaser on overload' music brings it up several notches ... not a whole lot else I liked about CONSCIENCE, though it does give good backstory for Kirk.

There were fairly with-it teen folks in the 70s who were my age & didn't appreciate CITIZEN KANE, which is something I didn't understand then or now. In fact, at least a couple of them didn't like DR STRANGELOVE, which really confused me. I think it was an early manifestation of 'hate B&W.'
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Old August 1 2013, 07:08 PM   #34
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Re: JJverse converts

BillJ wrote: View Post
I'm honestly just tired of people saying that kids today have ADD if they don't somehow enjoy a very sexist, scientifically inaccurate TV show that is fifty-years old.
I understand but I am not saying kids have ADD today.

As for the show being sexist well that I do agree with. But it is not like sexism is gone from today's TV and movies, not at all. I felt JJ Abrams movies were sexist to. That bothers me more than the sexism of a 1960's show.

As for scientifically inaccurate, I don't think it was for that time period.

It's unfair to judge things from the past by today's standards, but of course I admit a lot of people have trouble with this and it is not just kids.
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Old August 1 2013, 07:19 PM   #35
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Re: JJverse converts

Melakon wrote: View Post
All I can say is, it's a good thing TOS was filmed in color, or some people would refuse to watch it just because of that. It saddens me that there are those who ignore some of the greatest films in history because they're in black and white.
I hate to admit it but I have a daughter that is like this. She is 25 and refuses to watch any movie or TV show that is in black and white. I have tried to convert he with little success.
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Old August 1 2013, 09:03 PM   #36
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Re: JJverse converts

BillJ wrote: View Post
trevanian wrote: View Post

Wouldn't explain the continued relevancy of others that have withstood the test of time.

I also think that the changes in our world are largely cosmetic. We don't have to go downtown to the library to do our research, but we still have governments discrediting do-gooders or those who think outside proscribed boxes, and crimes predicated on race and so many other damn things that are the same that it isn't funny.
I grew up in the 70's and 80's and I think the world is a far different place.

I can easily see where some stories simply wouldn't work for newer audiences, even though I love them. One that I would point to right off the bat is The Conscience of the King (an episode I love). My daughter asked a very straight forward question when she was a bit younger: why don't they simply do a DNA test? I know and you know that wasn't even on the radar in 1960's storytelling. But I could easily see it being a stumbling block to someone who has known about DNA almost their entire lives.

The Conscience of the King isn't really a murder mystery, although obviously it is literally a murder mystery at the superficial plot level.

It's about how the responsibilities of leadership sometimes cause people to do horrible things--to commit genocide--yet think they are doing it for the greater good.

It's about how the sins of the fathers can send shockwaves down through the generations.
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Old August 1 2013, 09:10 PM   #37
Mr. Hengist
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Re: JJverse converts

BillJ wrote: View Post
Kinokima wrote: View Post

I understand kids shouldn't be expected to make the leap on their own that is why it needs to be explained to them.

And I am not saying once explained kids will suddenly appreciate it. It depends on the kid, but I think trying to give them some context does help.
I've watched Star Trek with all three of my kids and it has stuck to varying degrees. My daughter likes the original, unaltered episodes even though she has questioned the science, my oldest son pokes holes in the plot logic/science of every single episode he's watched and my youngest son has trouble staying engaged with episodes of TOS, but watched Into Darkness straight through without budging and I even caught him rubbing tears out of his eyes when a certain scene happened.

I'm honestly just tired of people saying that kids today have ADD if they don't somehow enjoy a very sexist, scientifically inaccurate TV show that is fifty-years old.

When I read TOS novels, I actually imagine the technology with more of a modern interpretation.
The "sexist" scientifically inaccurate TOS is of course, the source material for the JJ movies. The JJ movies are almost entirely derivative of their source material--sure, the source material is tarted up in the JJ movies quite a bit, but the JJ movies are pure pop-culture kitsch, forgettable and disposable, as compared to the source material.

TOS, whatever its flaws, at least from time to time actually tried to tackle some important ideas in the context of weekly serial space opera.
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Old August 1 2013, 09:25 PM   #38
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Re: JJverse converts

ssosmcin wrote: View Post
The whole "all kids have ADD" thing is a bunch of bullshit anyway. That's just another version of the older generation crabbing about how "kids don't understand nothing good" that they're parents said about them. It's what every single older generation says about the younger. "They don't like it unless it's got 'splosions, quick cuts, loud rock music and shaky cam." Just because they're used to what the standard for blockbuster entertainment is doesn't make them closed to other things. What many people don't enjoy, though (and this ain't just kids), is dated TV and movies. Lots of us like what we grew up with and what we're used to. In 40 years, they'll be nostalgic for what they like today. But their kids will mock how cheesy it all seems. "They can't see past the old effects!" Well for some people, even the best effects from 50 years earlier are simply "bad" today.

Some people don't care about effects and are fine with watching an outdated style of acting. But you won't find them in the majority. I'm 45, I grew up with Star Trek and enjoy old movies and TV. But even I couldn't watch the James Cagney movie "The Public Enemy" without laughing at some of it. Or rolling my eyes at how the sublte, real acting by Burgess Meredeth and Lon Chaney Jr in "Of Mice and Men" was countered by over the top mugging by a few who couldn't adjust to "talkies."

Oh, I also have ADD. Only those who live with it can tell you what fresh hell it is. Yet, I still can sit through an old movie or TV show if I find it interesting. Tastes change with every generation. To old people, every new is crap. I got news for ya, the generation before ours thought the stuff we revere was crap, too.

Younger people will like or dislike 60's Star Trek based on their tastes.

Tastes may change, but taste doesn't.
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Old August 1 2013, 09:58 PM   #39
Mr. Hengist
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Re: JJverse converts

trevanian wrote: View Post
I'm a little troubled by the inclusion of real-world science trends in TOS novels ... Diane Duane kept referencing a shipboard BBS in one and I'm thinking each time that this is like calling subspace radio a telegraph system.

Back on an earlier point, with CONSCIENCE you have a show failing on its own terms, w/o the issue of science that isn't included or wasn't even conceived of. You have them saying they will KNOW when his voice is recorded ... and instead, they don't know. They make it sound like the science issue a done deal, but it is arbitrarily dispensed with.
That's called a red herring. Very common plot device in murder mysteries. I don't see how the episode fails "on its own terms"?

On its own terms, it's superficially a murder mystery plot-wise, but thematically, it's about blood being on the hands of a powerful man and even though he tried to escape judgment, that blood washed off on his own child. He couldn't escape the consequences of what he did 20 years before. He couldn't escape his fate, the direct consequences of his own evil acts--his own personal destruction and much worse yet, the consequences of what he did being visited on his own daughter who became an insane killer herself.



Back when I had time to waste on such, I used to rank it at #78 (right before AND THE CHILDREN SHALL LEAD), but the 'phaser on overload' music brings it up several notches ... not a whole lot else I liked about CONSCIENCE, though it does give good backstory for Kirk.
What you get out of it might be a function of what you are looking for. If you are just looking at these things as silly police procedural murder mysteries in outer space then it's just pretty much disposable fluff and there's not much point in watching it more than once or thinking about what the author is trying to say.

The problem with the JJ movies is that they are just spectacles, surface fluff, based on the TOS source material and don't really have very much weight to them because they aren't trying to express any big ideas. The JJ movies are pretty much the equivalent to Die Hard V or Transformers III. They do not say anything "new" and they don't even come close to trying to say anything "new." Nor anything "old" that's significant in a new or different way.

TWOK was interesting because of the battle of wills between the two lead characters. Not really because of the special effects.

Into Darkness was pretty much all about "Now how do we plot this thing so we have an excuse to crash a giant star ship into Star Fleet Command Headquarters"? No different really then the climactic battle of "Man of Steel," let's blow up a city, gee whiz that will "look cool on the screen"!!!! (And that's all that counts!!!)

Anyone watching these movies has to understand that the end of Man of Steel is exactly the same as Into Darkness. The whole movie is an excuse to blow up a city, in both cases. Does it mean anything? Does it have any greater significance? NO. Both are almost totally nihilistic in that respect. Destruction for its own sake, for the sheer spectacle of it. The expression of sheer power by ubermensch battling each other.




There were fairly with-it teen folks in the 70s who were my age & didn't appreciate CITIZEN KANE, which is something I didn't understand then or now. In fact, at least a couple of them didn't like DR STRANGELOVE, which really confused me. I think it was an early manifestation of 'hate B&W.'
That's because most people are of mediocre intelligence or below and they don't look at movies like Siskel & Ebert.

Look at all the ugly tattoos young people (and even older people) get nowadays. Look at this Sydney Leathers person, her back is covered with perhaps one of the ugliest tattoos I've ever seen. You would at least think if she was going to have that done to herself she would have gotten something more artistic/classy. It looks like a chipanzee with a sharpee scrawled all over her.
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Old August 1 2013, 10:12 PM   #40
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Re: JJverse converts

Mr. Hengist wrote: View Post

That's because most people are of mediocre intelligence or below and they don't look at movies like Siskel & Ebert.
Always a good way to win an argument. Insult those who have a differing viewpoint.


Look at all the ugly tattoos young people (and even older people) get nowadays. Look at this Sydney Leathers person, her back is covered with perhaps one of the ugliest tattoos I've ever seen. You would at least think if she was going to have that done to herself she would have gotten something more artistic/classy. It looks like a chipanzee with a sharpee scrawled all over her.
I have no idea what this has to do with anything?

You sound like a grumpy old man screaming at kids to get off his lawn.
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Old August 1 2013, 11:30 PM   #41
trevanian
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Re: JJverse converts

Mr. Hengist wrote: View Post
trevanian wrote: View Post
I'm a little troubled by the inclusion of real-world science trends in TOS novels ... Diane Duane kept referencing a shipboard BBS in one and I'm thinking each time that this is like calling subspace radio a telegraph system.

Back on an earlier point, with CONSCIENCE you have a show failing on its own terms, w/o the issue of science that isn't included or wasn't even conceived of. You have them saying they will KNOW when his voice is recorded ... and instead, they don't know. They make it sound like the science issue a done deal, but it is arbitrarily dispensed with.
That's called a red herring. Very common plot device in murder mysteries. I don't see how the episode fails "on its own terms"?

On its own terms, it's superficially a murder mystery plot-wise, but thematically, it's about blood being on the hands of a powerful man and even though he tried to escape judgment, that blood washed off on his own child. He couldn't escape the consequences of what he did 20 years before. He couldn't escape his fate, the direct consequences of his own evil acts--his own personal destruction and much worse yet, the consequences of what he did being visited on his own daughter who became an insane killer herself.
The 'on its own terms' reference was to view the show in the context of its time, rather than knock it because they didn't use DNA to solve it. I don't consider the voice record comparison a red herring, any more than I would expect some ordinary body shot with a phaser set on vaporize to keep walking around afterward -- as setup and defined, it should have provided the answer, and it should not have been set up as THE answer if it was not. It should have been set up as something with the potential to answer the question, which leaves its failure puzzling instead of stupid.

For me, with CONSCIENCE -- an ep that I had been hyped for by a couple of friends, and one of the later eps I caught, probably after seeing ARENA and DOOMSDAY and METAMORPHOSIS a couple dozen times each -- it didn't deliver on the premise in an engaging way. It might be due to the lack of scene time between Shatner and Moss, or maybe I have too much flinch at the 'I am TIRED!' line. (I wonder if this one was finished before Coon came on. I know it has some Spock/McCoy, but I think they've still got Spock not sounding 'right' yet. I'm one of the guys who kinda like the first dozen, but don't really dig the show till Coon leaves his mark with the characterizations.)

It would mean throwing away the whole theater angle, but I think this kind of story would have worked better if it were a Garth of Izar-type, some hero of Kirk's, who was the did-he/didn't-he figure of the story. That way it would be as much about Kirk stripping away his preconceptions of the man as it would be about the stock-mystery itself. It would also suggest a tag that could have resonated nicely, something to the effect that playing God as a starship captain has the potential to warp one's perspective, given the great stakes.

I guess just by virtue of having spent awhile thinking how the show could have been bettered means it couldn't have been that much of a turkey; I certainly wouldn't invest any time in making AND THE CHILDREN SHALL LEAD anything but shorter.
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Old August 2 2013, 12:05 AM   #42
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Re: JJverse converts

[QUOTE=BillJ;8456239]
Mr. Hengist wrote: View Post

That's because most people are of mediocre intelligence or below and they don't look at movies like Siskel & Ebert.
Always a good way to win an argument. Insult those who have a differing viewpoint.
It's not an "insult" to point out that most people are of mediocre intelligence or less [that's definitional based on a normal distribution of human intelligence in the population] and don't view movies the way Siskel & Ebert do. [That's just an obvious fact--most people aren't invested in understanding the cultural meanings of cinema. That's why the boob-ocracy doesn't care about our cultural antecedents. The don't care about "Citizen Kane" or "Casablanca" but then they also don't care about Dizzy Gillespie, Auguste Renoir, or William Shakespeare. If they don't care about those cultural antecedents, then why would anyone expect the boob-ocracy to care about TOS?] No insult was directed your way my friend, nor anyone else's; and if you think a truthful statement is an insult, then you're woefully and unnecessarily oversensitive, and that's your issue, no one else's.



Look at all the ugly tattoos young people (and even older people) get nowadays. Look at this Sydney Leathers person, her back is covered with perhaps one of the ugliest tattoos I've ever seen. You would at least think if she was going to have that done to herself she would have gotten something more artistic/classy. It looks like a chipanzee with a sharpee scrawled all over her.
I have no idea what this has to do with anything?
That doesn't surprise me but the fact that you don't have any idea doesn't mean there isn't any idea. It just means you don't comprehend the point which is fine. I won't bother trying to explain the obvious to you since you'd just consider it an insult.


You sound like a grumpy old man screaming at kids to get off his lawn.
You sound like one of the kids on the lawn.
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Old August 2 2013, 12:22 AM   #43
Mr. Hengist
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Re: JJverse converts

trevanian wrote: View Post
Mr. Hengist wrote: View Post
trevanian wrote: View Post
I'm a little troubled by the inclusion of real-world science trends in TOS novels ... Diane Duane kept referencing a shipboard BBS in one and I'm thinking each time that this is like calling subspace radio a telegraph system.

Back on an earlier point, with CONSCIENCE you have a show failing on its own terms, w/o the issue of science that isn't included or wasn't even conceived of. You have them saying they will KNOW when his voice is recorded ... and instead, they don't know. They make it sound like the science issue a done deal, but it is arbitrarily dispensed with.
That's called a red herring. Very common plot device in murder mysteries. I don't see how the episode fails "on its own terms"?

On its own terms, it's superficially a murder mystery plot-wise, but thematically, it's about blood being on the hands of a powerful man and even though he tried to escape judgment, that blood washed off on his own child. He couldn't escape the consequences of what he did 20 years before. He couldn't escape his fate, the direct consequences of his own evil acts--his own personal destruction and much worse yet, the consequences of what he did being visited on his own daughter who became an insane killer herself.
The 'on its own terms' reference was to view the show in the context of its time, rather than knock it because they didn't use DNA to solve it. I don't consider the voice record comparison a red herring, any more than I would expect some ordinary body shot with a phaser set on vaporize to keep walking around afterward -- as setup and defined, it should have provided the answer, and it should not have been set up as THE answer if it was not. It should have been set up as something with the potential to answer the question, which leaves its failure puzzling instead of stupid.

For me, with CONSCIENCE -- an ep that I had been hyped for by a couple of friends, and one of the later eps I caught, probably after seeing ARENA and DOOMSDAY and METAMORPHOSIS a couple dozen times each -- it didn't deliver on the premise in an engaging way. It might be due to the lack of scene time between Shatner and Moss, or maybe I have too much flinch at the 'I am TIRED!' line. (I wonder if this one was finished before Coon came on. I know it has some Spock/McCoy, but I think they've still got Spock not sounding 'right' yet. I'm one of the guys who kinda like the first dozen, but don't really dig the show till Coon leaves his mark with the characterizations.)

It would mean throwing away the whole theater angle, but I think this kind of story would have worked better if it were a Garth of Izar-type, some hero of Kirk's, who was the did-he/didn't-he figure of the story. That way it would be as much about Kirk stripping away his preconceptions of the man as it would be about the stock-mystery itself. It would also suggest a tag that could have resonated nicely, something to the effect that playing God as a starship captain has the potential to warp one's perspective, given the great stakes.

I guess just by virtue of having spent awhile thinking how the show could have been bettered means it couldn't have been that much of a turkey; I certainly wouldn't invest any time in making AND THE CHILDREN SHALL LEAD anything but shorter.
Name any other tv show of the period that would attempt to take a rather trite plot about a murder mystery and elevate it to a Shakesperean-level tragedy. Especially a "Sci-Fi" series. Or movie. There are none that I can think of. [Well of course there's always Forbidden Planet/"The Tempest" but...]

Maybe it didn't live up to your expectations and didn't acheive that goal but at least it tried and that's a very worthy effort.

I don't think anything is accomplished by comparing dissimilar episodes other than to muddy the waters. What in common does "And the Children Shall Lead?" have with "Conscience," thematically, plot-wise, or in any other respect, other than the rather arbitrary coincidence that you don't happen to like either of them very much? There's no reason for the two episodes to be in the same discussion other than that.
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Old August 2 2013, 12:30 AM   #44
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Re: JJverse converts

Mr. Hengist wrote: View Post
You sound like one of the kids on the lawn.
I'm 42. I haven't been a kid in a very long time.
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Old August 2 2013, 12:33 AM   #45
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Re: JJverse converts

ssosmcin wrote: View Post
The whole "all kids have ADD" thing is a bunch of bullshit anyway. That's just another version of the older generation crabbing about how "kids don't understand nothing good" that they're parents said about them. It's what every single older generation says about the younger. "They don't like it unless it's got 'splosions, quick cuts, loud rock music and shaky cam." Just because they're used to what the standard for blockbuster entertainment is doesn't make them closed to other things. What many people don't enjoy, though (and this ain't just kids), is dated TV and movies. Lots of us like what we grew up with and what we're used to. In 40 years, they'll be nostalgic for what they like today. But their kids will mock how cheesy it all seems. "They can't see past the old effects!" Well for some people, even the best effects from 50 years earlier are simply "bad" today.
So, the short version of what you're saying is, "In 40 years, they'll get theirs!".

Yeah, our parents and grandparents said THAT about us, too. I remember it well.
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