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Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

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Old August 3 2013, 01:21 AM   #16
Metryq
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Libby visits Copenhagen

Without causality, there is no science.

He started to disconnect his gadget.

Lazarus said hastily, "Hold it, Andy! We aren't even outside the orbit of Mercury yet. Why put on the brakes?"

'Why, this won't stop us. We have acquired velocity; we will keep it."

Lazarus pulled at his cheek and stared. "Ordinarily I would agree with you. First Law of Motion. But with this pseudospeed I'm not so sure. We got it for nothing and we haven't paid for it—in energy, I mean. You seem to have declared a holiday with respect to inertia; when the holiday is over, won't all that free speed go back where it came from?"

"I don't think so," Libby answered. "Our velocity isn't 'pseudo' anything; it's as real as velocity can be. You are attempting to apply verbal anthropomorphic logic to a field in which it is not pertinent. You would not expect us to be transported instantaneously back to the lower gravitational potential from which we started, would you?"

"Back to where you hooked in your space drive? No, we've moved."

"And we'll keep on moving. Our newly acquired gravitational potential energy of greater height above the Sun is no more real than our present kinetic energy of velocity. They both exist."

Lazarus looked baffled. The expression did not suit him. "I guess you've got me, Andy. No matter how I slice it, we seemed to have picked up energy from somewhere. But where? When I went to school, they taught me to honor the Flag, vote the straight party ticket, and believe in the law of conservation of energy. Seems like you've violated it. How about it?"

"Don't worry about it," suggested Libby. "The so-called law of conservation of energy was merely a working hypothesis, unproved and unprovable, used to describe gross phenomena. Its terms apply only to the older, dynamic concept of the world. In a plenum conceived as a static grid of relationships, a 'violation' of that 'law' is nothing more startling than a discontinuous function, to be noted and described. That's what I did. I saw a discontinuity in the mathematical model of the aspect of mass-energy called inertia. I applied it. The mathematical model turned out to be similar to the real world. That was the only hazard, really—one never knows that a mathematical model is similar to the real world until you try it."

"Yeah, yeah, sure, you can't tell the taste till you bite it— but, Andy, I still don't see what caused it!" He turned toward Ford. "Do you, Slayton?"

Ford shook his head. "No. I would like to know . . . but I doubt if I could understand it."

"You and me both. Well, Andy?"

Now Libby looked baffled. "But, Lazarus, causality has nothing to do with the real plenum. A fact simply is. Causality is merely an old-fashioned-postulate of a pre-scientific philosophy."
—METHUSELAH'S CHILDREN by Robert Heinlein
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Old August 6 2013, 02:22 PM   #17
FreddyE
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Re: Alcubierre Drive - A thought excercise.

scotpens wrote: View Post
Alcubierre Drive? Never heard of it. Sounds like a street in Beverly Hills.
Alcubierre Drive is the theoretical real live version of warp drive.
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Old August 6 2013, 03:56 PM   #18
sojourner
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Location: I'm at WKRP
Re: Alcubierre Drive - A thought excercise.

FreddyE wrote: View Post
scotpens wrote: View Post
Alcubierre Drive? Never heard of it. Sounds like a street in Beverly Hills.
Alcubierre Drive is the theoretical real live version of warp drive.
Joke. He was making a a joke.
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Old August 10 2013, 08:54 PM   #19
publiusr
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Re: Alcubierre Drive - A thought excercise.

sojourner wrote: View Post

So unless I am missing something, even if we built an Alcubierre driven ship tomorrow, without a real space drive to accompany it we'll still be stuck to this solar system.
That is a good point. If an Apollo spacecraft were to go, say through a stargate as seen in SG1, it had better be in orbit of a habitable world or you are screwed.

I'm thinking any real space drive needed to explore in-system had better have both high specific impulse and high thrust--and NSWR is the only game in town. Land, take off, give one g thrust for hours--it is the closest thing to the Orbit Jet we will ever have.

Now in the Book THE DREAM MACHINES I do remember an airplane shaped craft that wasn't NSWR (not Aldebaran, but another one) that was a surface to surface craft.

Now what I would like to do is to find a wormhole with two mouths closer to each other in this solar system.

I wouldn't want them on Earth, but if I could find a way to make one wormhole mouth unidirectional--you would have the ultimate rocket.

You toss one wormhole mouth into the sun, and have a huge fusion jet out of the mouth of the other. There is your rocket.

A rocket with no fuel tank--saturday morning cartoons come to life. Push asteroids around at well, transport thousands of tons at speed, etc. Now it would take a long time to drain the sun, so this thing could just circle in system waiting to be recalled.

You push on to another, somewhat larger star, back and forth..and then throw the wormhole from the rocket into the other sun. That star becomes less massive, and lives longer, and our sun has fresh hydrogen.
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